Wet_Feet wrote:vkmaynard wrote:
Actually thanks for the facts!
We intend to by our sails from you. Looking forward to a custom 120-135 Jib with luff pad and two sheets so we can run both sets of tracks (even if we have to add an additional forward track) at the same time and compromise on pointing and reaching, The 150 is awful for pointing and the 100% jib is too small for reaching. Furling the 150 to clear the stays creates a useless diaper. We would also like to add sail area to the lower part of the main.
Victor
Hey Victor, it sounds like you've done your research but thought I would pass along a note a saw on the BWY website....
"130% or 135% Genoas simply do not work well on any of these boats because the mast shrouds are attached all the way out at the hull. The wide shroud base makes it impossible to properly sheet these in between sized sails for proper upwind sailing. On all Macgregor and Venture models (as well as a lot of other boats) these sails really don't do anything well. They must be sheeted outside the mast shrouds so they aren't easy to tack, but unlike the 150% Genoa, these sails do not extend far enough past the shrouds to wrap around them, so they are VERY limited in their ability to sail close to the wind. With a 150% Genoa, the shrouds fall into the "pocket" of the sail so you can pull the sail in much closer. While you will get a little more power reaching and downwind than a 100% Jib, it's not enough to make up for the disadvantages."
Perhaps you've got something figured out? I'm pretty new to this sailing Gig but I'm assuming that when you reef a 150 Genny you have to relocate the sheets to the forward sheet rail (same place as they would be for a jib), and this is where you are getting the "Wet Diaper" Sail?
dthiesmeyer wrote:I just bought my new 26M RF Genoa from Judy. The few extra bucks is well worth the investment. I ordered my new sail and received it in less than four weeks. I am so impressed with the looks, quality and increased performance, I will get all my future sails from Judy!!!
What sort of a sail are you coming from?
Judy B wrote:...Please forgive my blatant self-promotion, but I think Hyde Sails Direct comes out on the top of the list when doing an apples-to-apples comparison...
Cheers,
Judy
Hi Judy, I'm sure your sails are very good quality and your comparison of the 6oz Dacron Main sail shows the value. I notice the BWY site advises that most coastal or inland sailors find the 6 oz sails a lot to handle. They also advise on their website they have found "5 or 5.5 oz with most mainsails, 5 oz for genoas and most Jibs being 5.5 oz give the best balance of performance, durability and ease of handling for each sail type. All of these sails will seem a little stiffer than the factory sails, but not to the point of being unpleasant to handle."
In regards to my specific situation, I am looking for an economical replacement for my furling Jib sail. I will be lucky to get 20 days a year out on the water, mostly in the summer when there is frequently just a breeze. I think the heavy duty 6 oz sail cloth may not be value added. Additionally I am considering moving up to a genoa at some point in the future (although Victors comments make me question that plan), in which case the Jib will just be stored away.
So to compare jib sails based on what I have learned....
(and adding consideration for our currently crappy CDN $)
BWY / Doyle - Made in USA (Seattle)
Furling Jib 5 oz Challenge High Modulus Dacron - $350 / CDN$455
or Furling Jib 5.5 oz Challenge High Modulus Dacron with UV cover - $495 / CDN$643
or Furling Jib 5 layer laminate performance sail = 7.4 oz Dacron - $950 / CDN$1235
VS
Judy B / Hyde Direct - Made in Phillipines
Furling Jib 6 oz Challenge High Modulus Dacron - $674 / CDN$876
or Furling Jib 6 oz Challenge High Modulus Dacron - $775 / CDN$1007
I'm guessing free shipping only applies to your US customers as your website quotes $102 / CDN$133 to ship to me in Canada. Too bad you can't just drop ship direct from the Phillipines for "free". I'm guessing BWY shipping is similar. I included the manufacture location as even if quality is equal or better, it is still important to many people.
The short story is I haven't been able to justify the spend for the heavier sail cloth...all else being equal. Thanks for your input though as I have learned more about sail construction as a result. I may regret my decision in a few years....or I may not, only one way to find out.
Cheers,
John
WOW. There's so many things i could comment on here. I hardly know where to start. Sailcloth is a big topic, and a highly technical one.
Everybody knows that I've got an economic self interest here, but I'll try to suppply you with useful info, to teach you about cloth a bit, and then let you decide which sail suits your needs and budget best.
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Everybody on this forum who has a 6 oz sail from me loves it. Not a single complaint
That statement "most sailors have a hard time handling 6 oz cloth" isn't true.
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It is a publicly-known fact that Challenge Sailcloth doesn't make a High Modulus cloth in the 5 to 5.5 oz weight range. They publish their catalog online.
That means it's not possible for Doyle to build sails for BWY out of 5 oz or 5.5 oz Challenge High Modulus cloth.
BWY is highly respected for their honesty and good customer service. I sincerely believe they would never,ever intentionally or knowingly misrepresent their product.
I really, really think there's been a verbal miscommunication between you and BWY.
Their website says 5.0 oz dacron and 5.5 oz dacron.
Their website doesn't mention "High Modulus" anywhere.
In fact, their website doesn't even mention Challenge anywhere.
Below is EXACTLY what It says, cut and pasted verbatim. This doesn't agree with the information in your last post.
JIBS, 100%
Standard Replacement Sails: (in stock, BWY Exclusive)
Roller Furling / 5.0 Dacron / NO UV cover $350.00 *
Coastal Cruising / Performance Sails: (in stock, BWY Exclusive)
Hank-on / 5.5 Dacron $395.00 *
Roller Furling / 5.5 Dacron / White UV Cover $495.00 *
Custom Sails: (made to order, appx. 4 weeks, BWY Exclusive)
Hank-on / Dacron Cruise Laminate / Tri Radial Cut $995.00
Roller Furling / Dacron Cruise Laminate / Tri Radial Cut / UV Optional $950.00
Because these sails are made to order, many options are available, call for specific prices
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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 5 OZ OR 5.5 OZ CHALLENGE HIGH MODULUS CLOTH.
Challenge 5.53 has 250 x 300 dernier threads in the weave. It does not weigh 5.53 oz
Challenge 6.03 has 250 x 400 dernier threads in the weave. It does not weigh 6.03 oz
They both weigh exactly the same. 6 oz.
The difference in thread diameter are offset by threads per inch and density of weave, to arrive at the final weight.
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Challenge has another product line called "Performance Cruise", but none of those weigh 5 oz. They are softer than Challenge High Modulus Dacron. They are stretchier too. The cloth is a less expensive, budget grade of cloth. Good cloth, but definitely stretchier than Challenge High Modulus.
All the product codes end in x.18.
Challenge 4.18 has 150 x 250 dernier threads, It weighs 4.3 oz
Challenge 5.18 has 150 x 250 dernier threads. It weighs 4.6 oz
Challenge 6.18 has 150 x 450 dernier threads. it weighs 5.6 oz.
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CHALLENGE PERFORMANCE CRUISE DACRON IS STRETCHIER THAN HIGH MODULUS, even when they are both of equal weight.
Here's an example:
Challenge Performance Cruise 6.18 is a lot heavier than Challenge High Modulus 4.93.
Despite the heavier weight, it significantly stretchier because.
Also, in the 4-6 oz range, it is pretty fragile because it has narrow 150 dernier threads that don't last long when exposed to UV or flogging.
I avoid selling cloth with 150 dernier threads whenever possible because it doesn't last as long as cloth made of bigger threads.
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As a final bit of advice to everybody, I will repeat something I've said many times:
I recommend you buy the best sails they can afford, unless you plan to sell the boat in a year or two at most. By "best sails", I mean the ones that will hold their shape the longest. Over the medium to long term, sails that are less stretchy save you money because they make you boat perform like new. Sails that hold their shape make sailing safer and more fun. You point higher, heel less and it's easier to control the boat.
IMO, it is no fun AT ALL to sail with stretchy sails. Boats with stretchy sails handle like crap and are hard to control
In order to comparison shop, you have to compare the style of the cloth, not the weight. Weight doesn't tell you how stretchy the cloth is.
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Cheers,
Judy
