Stuck in irons.. help please.

[kevinnem]

Hello all.

Was sailing a few weeks ago , wind started light, so I had everything up .. full main, and full genoa, then a puff of air came along (my area is very variable for wind direction and speed) and pushed me over, the boat rounded up ( after dumping everything on the floor) as expected.

Roller furled up the genoa and continued on full main alone. However I seemed to have to fight a lot - she would not track well, .. she sailed slow. A while ago I was out with friends and we used the genoa alone, and it seemed to work pretty well.

At one point I tried to tack across (remember no head sail) and got stuck in irons. This is where stuff got really annoying. She would just not come out of it. Sometimes I was drifting backward, so turning left would go right, right would go left... but any time I would start to come out and the sails would start to fill, she would just turn back in to the the "eye" and sit in irons again. Tried every rudder "setting" .. hard left, slight left, center, slightly right, and hard right - no difference. Tried to lean the boat over to the side.

in the end used engine to pull out of it.

Any ideas?should I have rolled out the head sail, even 50% so I could back wind it?

[bobflshmn]

Don't know about the X but on my D I roll the genoa in 1/3 to 2/3 and it still handles well. Needs that extra bit to track true.

[dlandersson]

I find that my X tracks better with the Genoa only than the main only.

Hello all.

Was sailing a few weeks ago , wind started light, so I had everything up .. full main, and full genoa, then a puff of air came along (my area is very variable for wind direction and speed) and pushed me over, the boat rounded up ( after dumping everything on the floor) as expected.

Roller furled up the genoa and continued on full main alone. However I seemed to have to fight a lot - she would not track well, .. she sailed slow. A while ago I was out with friends and we used the genoa alone, and it seemed to work pretty well.

At one point I tried to tack across (remember no head sail) and got stuck in irons. This is where stuff got really annoying. She would just not come out of it. Sometimes I was drifting backward, so turning left would go right, right would go left... but any time I would start to come out and the sails would start to fill, she would just turn back in to the the "eye" and sit in irons again. Tried every rudder "setting" .. hard left, slight left, center, slightly right, and hard right - no difference. Tried to lean the boat over to the side.

in the end used engine to pull out of it.

Any ideas?should I have rolled out the head sail, even 50% so I could back wind it?

[sailboatmike]

I would always keep some jib out, the jib is your power sail and keeps the boat stable, my X really struggles to get anywhere near across the wind on jib alone, we normally have to gybe rather than tack if we are sailing with the jib alone and in light winds back winding the jib is sometimes the only way to get around if you cant build enough speed to cross the eye of the wind

[Rick62]

Happened to me last Sunday with only the main up. There was a decent breeze but my partner didn't know how to use the headsail sheets so I kept it simple. It was weird. All this wind but only sailing at a slow walking pace. I looked over the transom and noticed I was using the tiller way too much and over steering. They seemed to be working against each other. Didn't help that I forgot to raise the motor as well. I put it down to inexperience. I am an old Hobie cat trailer sailor and when sailing with only the main I recall that you have to tack with a "slow but fluid motion". Remember cats have two hulls and two rudders and with no headsail they can be difficult to tack. Once you get experience it then becomes second nature. I have read quite a few posts on here with people who have had similar problems.

[Tomfoolery]

I find that my X tracks better with the Genoa only than the main only.

Same here. If sailing with only one sail, the Genoa is the best (or least worst, as it were). And if it's on a furler, it's also the easiest to hoist and dowse.

Problem for me is that I use the working jib and main almost exclusively, and changing headsails is a pain so it's all or nothing for me most of the time.

Need another forestay and furler. Or a code zero. Paging Highlander.

[BOAT]

You could try raising your centerboard a little - that might shift things a little bit aft and give your main a little more bite on the water.

[budgates]

The problem you're experiencing here is due to sail balance. The force on each sail can be thought of as a single force located about 1/3 of the way back from the leading edge. This is called the center of effort (CE). With multiple sails the CE of each sail adds together to form a single resultant CE. The force of the centerboard, daggerboard, keel, etc. resisting the sideways motion can also be thought of as a single force located at it's center. This is called the center of lateral resistance (CLR). When the sails are balanced the CE and the CLR are inline with each other for and aft.

When using the mainsail alone the resultant CE is moved aft quite a bit, thus pushing the stern to leeward, causing weather helm (boat tries to turn toward the wind) which has to be countered by the rudder to maintain a straight course. Since the rudder isn't inline with the boat it causes drag which acts like a break. This is why the boat is much slower with the main alone. Although the CLR of a centerboard or swing keel can be moved aft by raising it, with a daggerboard or fixed keel you're out of luck.

When using the jib alone the CE if moved forward causing the bow to be pushed to leeward causing lee helm and making tacking much more difficult.

For optimum speed and control you would be best to use a small jib and reefed main.

[Calin]

When you have your main alone, the center of pressure is about 1/3 the size of the boom aft from the mast. That puts it too close to the stern increasing the weather helm. With the genoa/jib up the weather helm is reduced as the center of pressure goes forward. You want just a "little" weather helm in order to tack easily and avoid been stuck in iron. The resulting center of pressure (main + jib) moves forward with more jib/genoa sail (un furling) or aft with un-reefing the main sail. Also the sail that catches more wind ( higher angle to the wind and more tension in the lines) will contribute more the the center of pressure.
I would suggest to try first with a reefed main. As you turn for tacking, continue tension your jib and to lesser extend the main in to maintain traction and speed till you pass over the the eye of the wind. When you reach the point when you feel that you are about to slow down, turn a little faster. Never turn the rudders too much (i think you can turn 2.5 left or right so don't go past 1.5 to avoid stalling). After to passed over the eye of the wind keep maintaining your jibe tight till you feel the tack is secured. Then adjust quickly the sails as needed to avoid excessive heel.

[BOAT]

The problem you're experiencing here is due to sail balance. The force on each sail can be thought of as a single force located about 1/3 of the way back from the leading edge. This is called the center of effort (CE). With multiple sails the CE of each sail adds together to form a single resultant CE. The force of the centerboard, daggerboard, keel, etc. resisting the sideways motion can also be thought of as a single force located at it's center. This is called the center of lateral resistance (CLR). When the sails are balanced the CE and the CLR are inline with each other for and aft.

When using the mainsail alone the resultant CE is moved aft quite a bit, thus pushing the stern to leeward, causing weather helm (boat tries to turn toward the wind) which has to be countered by the rudder to maintain a straight course. Since the rudder isn't inline with the boat it causes drag which acts like a break. This is why the boat is much slower with the main alone. Although the CLR of a centerboard or swing keel can be moved aft by raising it, with a daggerboard or fixed keel you're out of luck.

When using the jib alone the CE if moved forward causing the bow to be pushed to leeward causing lee helm and making tacking much more difficult.

For optimum speed and control you would be best to use a small jib and reefed main.

Yeah, Bud said it right - this is a normal thing I used to get on my old Aquarius 23 > The main alone would put too much force behind the CB and turn the boat upwind. On the A23 we would raise the CB about half way and that would move the CB aft about a good two feet. I'm pretty sure a X boat has an even longer keel than the A23 so you might get even more feet aft. That should be enough to stop the bow from nosing up into the wind as long as your moving at least a 1/2 knot or more. Under 1/2 knot it's hard to make anything work.

The M boat is a daggerboard and that is why the M boat was designed right up front from the factory to sail on the main alone fully balanced. You can read all about that on the factory web site and it was a big selling feature to me because of the issues we had with the A23 sailing with no headsail. The M boat sails fine with main alone.

The X boat is faster than the M boat when they are both sailing with only a headsail - you could sail with the jib only in light winds and see how that works. I like to use the headsail alone if I am sailing inside the marina because the furling feature allows better speed control in crowded places.

I think we all struggle with a no wind situation - it's really hard to keep things in place when the sails are just flopping around. If you like using the jib only in those conditions I say more power to you - I'm the same way - the boom and the mainsail is a big hassle to me when there is no wind - the headsail just seems to much easier to manage to me but not everyone feels that way.

I watched the guys that sail the equator on you tube where the winds can stop for days at a time and I notice all they use is a headsail - a big very light puffy balloon kite headsail.

[C Buchs]

kevinnem:
Thanks for asking this question. I had the same problem when we lost one of the blocks that slide on the tracks for our jib. I concluded that I would always have to have some jib out to sail because I couldn't keep us out of irons. I didn't think about partially raising the centerboard! You guys are great.

Jeff

[Starscream]

The is known for this problem when sailing with the main only in strong winds.

Why it happens is best explained by others on the forum with understanding of things like CE and the causes of weatherhelm. All I know is that that this characteristic of the X has been experienced by many in the past, including myself.

It's actually a really stable point of sail. Once stuck in irons, you just can't get out without the motor or a scrap of foresail. The effect is kind of like heaving to, and you could use it to take a break if the winds are stable.

You didn't do anything wrong, it's a characteristic of the boat. It will happen every time if the foresail is completely furled and the wind hits a certain speed.

[NiceAft]

Something else I have noticed, and this is on my . If you are moving less than, or at, two MPH (3.21 KPH, 1.73 knots), successfully getting through a tack is damn near impossible.

I like all of the knowledge coming out about sail balance and wind, but you need to be moving at better than 2MPH to complete the maneuver. wind or not. If you take your time while tacking, you can loose all forward momentum to carry you through.

Ray

[dlandersson]

X's too

Something else I have noticed, and this is on my . If you are moving less than, or at, two MPH (3.21 KPH, 1.73 knots), successfully getting through a tack is damn near impossible.

I like all of the knowledge coming out about sail balance and wind, but you need to be moving at better than 2MPH to complete the maneuver. wind or not. If you take your time while tacking, you can loose all forward momentum to carry you through.

Ray

[seahouse]

As well as making sure to initiate the tack with enough way, or forward speed, be careful with rudder input. Too much, too fast and you will have too much drag or even stall the rudders. Getting the feel of this is where a tiller has an advantage over wheel steering.

As you have gathered by now, it's best to avoid getting in irons in the first place....

But....

If the luffing is not too severe (ie. you are in irons partly because of light wind conditions) and you are careful and have confidence doing it in safety*, you can grab the boom, from the cockpit, and push it sideways, either port or starboard, (letting the mainsheet out freely) to get yourself out of irons. Once the boat is at enough of an angle to the wind, apply rudder, sheet back in and sail away.

*This can be risky in higher winds as the boom can move violently and with enough force to break your wrist (or something) if you aren't careful, just so you are forewarned.

Good luck!