sailboatmike wrote:I think just once everyone should put their boat on its ear, just make sure EVERYTHING is secured below decks before you do.
This will give you a great feeling of what the boat is capable of while still being safe and build your confidence in the boat.
Not a good thing to do all the time IMHO, but each to their own, what I dont understand about that whole thing is we try and trim our sails to give us as much speed as we can, yet lay the boat on its side way passed its efficient best angle which reduces speed, a bit counter productive in my book, a bit like driving with your foot on the gas and the brake at the same time
Because the angle at 45 degrees only lasts for a short time and then eventually the gust of wind dies down and the boat goes back to normal - that's why - it's just laziness - I just don't feel the need to jump up and down and start yanking on sheets every-time the wind gusts up a little - to me it's like "who cares"?
I'm a cruiser - I set the course first - I'm going "that a way" - then i set the sails to accommodate my course. The boat then goes in the direction i want. I stay on tack sometimes for hours on end - sometimes the boat is sitting flat because the wind is 4 knots and sometimes the boat is at 40 degrees because the wind is 15 knots - it goes back and forth and I don't care and it does not bother me and I see no need to jump up and re-set the sails every time the wind changes. Besides, on the M boat my experience is that it has little effect on the speed.
+ 1 & My Vids pretty much prove that , also Beene & I have vids of us sailin on his boat full main & his cruisin Spin heeled 35-45% & Kickin A$$ so not a lot of speed if any lost to b worth while bothering about ! . Now if u were in a race ur tatic,s may vary some what but then u have to factor in the weight on ur boat sails u r flying , wind conditions , wave height , tides , currents , wind direction , D/B poss, how many rudder,s down , on , on . My boat is generally loaded like a tank for living aboard & that,s one of the reasons I can fly so many head sails in rougher water
"Because the angle at 45 degrees only lasts for a short time and then eventually the gust of wind dies down and the boat goes back to normal - that's why - it's just laziness - I just don't feel the need to jump up and down and start yanking on sheets every-time the wind gusts up a little - to me it's like "who cares"?
I'm a cruiser - I set the course first - I'm going "that a way" - then i set the sails to accommodate my course. The boat then goes in the direction i want. I stay on tack sometimes for hours on end - sometimes the boat is sitting flat because the wind is 4 knots and sometimes the boat is at 40 degrees because the wind is 15 knots - it goes back and forth and I don't care and it does not bother me and I see no need to jump up and re-set the sails every time the wind changes. Besides, on the M boat my experience is that it has little effect on the speed."
I often have gusty (blustery in UK-speak) days and like to try to anticipate in order to keep the boat as flat as possible. I figure it's good practice for when the family is onboard. With the wife along, I give the main sheet to her so she feels in control to depower the sail...it really works to relive anxiety about heeling over too much. I have also learned the hard way that, when she is below preparing snacks or whatever, I only use the headsail...or motor. Plus, my dingy trainer, who is a keen racer, pounded "a flat boat is a fast boat" into my head...
Baha wrote:my dingy trainer, who is a keen racer, pounded "a flat boat is a fast boat" into my head...
Is that case on a Mac/M? ..... Is it technically possible to achieve that at any angle of wind?
My keel boat, which in no way resembled a motor-sailer or powerboat hull, would definitely sail faster when flatter. The fastest I ever had it going, a number of times, was always with the main reefed fully and some headsail furled, sailing in strong winds, and I got it to over a little over theoretical hull speed. That was a round-bottom sailboat displacement hull. But while too much sail and excess heel felt exciting, the knot meter and gps were telling me I wasn't going as fast as it felt.
But to BOAT's point, I tend to sail more like a cruiser, so when a gust pushes it over, I tend to just enjoy the ride if I know it's going to pass. If I have company, then I'll pay the main sheet out and maybe head up a little to stand her back up. Upsetting guests isn't fun for me. Well, mostly.
Tomfoolery wrote:None, unless you're heeled enough with too much sail up that you're not going as fast as you can for the conditions. Hull speed is around 6.5 kts.
Well, then if the boat is only heeling between 40 and 45 degrees and reefing is not gonna make me go any faster I see no point in reefing. Now, if people were scared because the boat was at 45 degrees and they wanted it to be at 30 degrees then I guess a reef would be okay - but the heel angle between 30 and 45 is just not that noticeable to me so why bother.
I did notice in the video that the X boat did slow down considerably the more he heeled the boat - in that situation I think a reef might be a good idea.
Tomfoolery wrote:None, unless you're heeled enough with too much sail up that you're not going as fast as you can for the conditions. Hull speed is around 6.5 kts.
Well, then if the boat is only heeling between 40 and 45 degrees and reefing is not gonna make me go any faster I see no point in reefing.
That's what I'm getting at. Do you know the boat won't go any faster if you put a single reef in and trim it for flatter sailing?
Oh yes, quite certain - I don't even need to reef the main to know that - first I reduce the Genoa - and that makes the boat go flatter - I can use the Genoa to get back to 25 degrees pretty easy - but then after I do that sure enough the wind will die down and I'm back to sailing at 4.5 knots - too slow! I wait and wait and then the wind picks back up and I'm back at 6 knots - Great! I'm happy again. But! Then the wind dies down and now I'm back to 4 knots! Arrgh! (too slow!) So I put the Genoa back out and the boat accelerates to 6 knots and just stays at 6 knots but wavers between 35 and 40 degrees - okay, so I can stay at 6 knots if I don't care about the heel angle.
I prefer speed over having a level place to put my beer. (Besides, I hold my beer - I never put it down unless a MOB condition arises - and in those cases it depends on how much beer is left in the can vs the value of the personnel in the water - (hey, priorities are priorities!)
We experimented on a friends boat, admittedly not a Mac but when reefed and sailing more upright we were the best part of 1 knot faster by the GPS through the water, we have also done the same with a Pacer dinghy, once again the reefed boat sailed over the top of the unreefed boat.
I would say the hull shape of a Pacer somewhat resembles a powersailor, with its wide flat bum.
You can argue until the cows come home, the fact is that upright is faster or are all these people wasting their time sitting on the rail of racing boat and with their feet under the tow straps hiking out in dinghies, why are they our there?, to keep the boat more upright increasing its efficiency and speed
BOAT wrote:Besides, I hold my beer - I never put it down unless a MOB condition arises - and in those cases it depends on how much beer is left in the can vs the value of the personnel in the water
BOAT you crack me up man
sailboatmike wrote:the fact is that upright is faster or are all these people wasting their time sitting on the rail of racing boat and with their feet under the tow straps hiking out in dinghies, why are they our there?, to keep the boat more upright increasing its efficiency and speed
This is where I'm a bit confused .... If reefed and more upright is faster then why aren't those racing boats reefing their sails.
I can't wait to tell all those folk "sitting on the rails" that they've been wasting their time
The racing boats often reef, the wind speed at which they reef is not in our league, most have many many tons of ballast, plus additional water ballast that can be pumped side to side as needed and canting keels, why do they do this, ohh yes to keep them flatter, because as we all know flatter is faster than on your ear, find me a single credible reference that says sail on your ear because its faster.
All the books on racing and performance sailing say keep it flat because its faster, maybe they all have it wrong
sailboatmike wrote:All the books on racing and performance sailing say keep it flat because its faster, maybe they all have it wrong
I don't doubt for second they are wrong Mike but I like to play devils advocate
It's also good to understand why I see some yachts heeling while the skipper reads a book and others heeling while the crew run around like chickens on a farm ... This thread has been an abundance of information ... Thanks gents.
Not all boats are created equal, 2 great examples are the Spider 28 and the Castle 650, both excellent racing trailer sailors BUT almost unsailable in anything over 15knts of wind, a mate has a Spider 28 and I keep telling him that his sponsor would get more value from having the advertising on the bottom once there is much more than a puff of wind.
These boat are constant winners as they are light weight and have HUGE rigs for the boat size, well they are winners until the wind starts blowing, then look at the back of the fleet because they heel too far and become very slow, the heavier boats that can stand upright in the wind just sail over the top of these light wind speedsters
Here is a link, the boat in the front of the pic is a castle 650, have a look at how its heeled compared to the other yachts in the race
.... If reefed and more upright is faster then why aren't those racing boats reefing their sails. 
