26M - Racing - Lay lines

[MikeFloutier]

Hi Guys,

I'm still in my first season as a boat owner and, as we have a great annual regatta on my doorstep I've decided to dip my toe in the water.

My only question really relates to navigation. It's likely to be a fairly short course, probably triangular.

What I'm looking for is a ball park (bearing to mark) figure for tacking and gybing (no spinnaker).

I'd prefer to over-stand for a bit of insurance.

I'd do some experimenting but I've taken the decision at very short notice and am just looking for a rough and ready guide.

Many thanks for any ideas.

[sailboatmike]

No spinnaker is going to hurt, the Assy is a big advantage that the Macs have against symmetric spinnaker boats when running.

My thoughts are dont try and point too high, thats not our strong point, come off the wind a bit and go for more speed rather than try and slug it out pushing hard on the wind, thats the lower lighter boats game, not the heavy, high profile cruiser game.

Most important thing is go out, gave fun and do it. Learn about your own boat and setup, no two boats are the same, a lot depends on how your rig is set up and how good your sails are.

Forestay tension and jib car position are vital factors when pushing up into the wind.

We were hoping to race the winter series here but the last 3 races have been blown out, for us racing will be more about improving our own skills and boat tuning than anything else, we know we are up against it most of the other boats in our class are racer / cruisers of around the size as us. Personally I cant see the point of having a 25 plus foot boat without standing headroom, but they suffer through that for a few more degrees pointing and a little less wind resistance

[MikeFloutier]

Many thanks Mike, yes my main aim is to have fun, I figured "if it's going on, why not join in".

And as you say, I will learn about my boat and sharpen my skills.

Also, although there are loads of boats overall, there are only 3 entered so far in my class (handicap cabin boats) all 23-25 foot so it should be fun.

I like your advice to bear away a bit; I've noticed I get a lot more speed this way (better VMG I guess too) so will try to remember that.

Will feedback after the event, thanks again!

[NiceAft]

Just remember; our boats won't be first to the finish line, but, because of our big motors, after the race you will be first to the bar.

Ray

[MikeFloutier]

Just remember; our boats won't be first to the finish line, but, because of our big motors, after the race you will be first to the bar.

Ray

Haha, thanks Ray, just bought my Class Flag and been to the race office to put in my entry.

Getting quite excited; must try to learn the rules about Marks etc.

[sailboatmike]

Rules of racing complex and stupid in some cases IMHO

While learning just try and keep out of peoples way, thats the strategy Im working on, we are not the most nimble boats out there and there are a few that wont understand that and may try and push you, stay on starboard tack as much as you can that way they have to give way to you, then they go and confuse the issue by saying you have to give them room to round the mark.

Unfortunately the traditional triangle course doesnt suit our boats if they run the standard extra upwind leg but Im sure you will be able to raise some eyebrows off the wind, many underestimate our off the wind speed

[DaveC426913]

My thoughts are dont try and point too high, thats not our strong point, come off the wind a bit and go for more speed rather than try and slug it out pushing hard on the wind, thats the lower lighter boats game, not the heavy, high profile cruiser game.

I often wonder, while beating high into the wind, what the optimal balance is between direction and speed.

I suppose there's no manual way to figure it; I'd just have to get a navigational computer to figure it out for me.

Related: I don't think I've ever had a no-sail angle anywhere near 90 degrees. Best I can usually manage is about 110 or even 120.
Makes for a long trip back home. when the wind is against me.

Forestay tension and jib car position are vital factors when pushing up into the wind.

Someday I'll check my mast rake and shroud tension.
But I have no idea what to do with the cars. I know what they're supposed to be for, and how they're supposed to work, but I've no idea how to decide where to set them in any given circumstance.
And, frankly, I've never seen the point. The armpit** rails interfere with any proper angle from car blocks to jib clew.



**If the bow rail is the "pulpit", and the stern rail is the "pushpit", then surely the midship rails are "armpits".

[Tomfoolery]

My thoughts are dont try and point too high, thats not our strong point, come off the wind a bit and go for more speed rather than try and slug it out pushing hard on the wind, thats the lower lighter boats game, not the heavy, high profile cruiser game.

I often wonder, while beating high into the wind, what the optimal balance is between direction and speed.

I suppose there's no manual way to figure it; I'd just have to get a navigational computer to figure it out for me.

Well, that's the crux of the biscuit, isn't it? That's what tacticians are for. Bear off a bit and pick up speed, or stay tight to the wind and shorten the distance to the mark? I'm not the one to answer that question, but it's always an interesting question.

Related: I don't think I've ever had a no-sail angle anywhere near 90 degrees. Best I can usually manage is about 110 or even 120.
Makes for a long trip back home. when the wind is against me.

Same here. This boat just doesn't point all that tight. Well, it points tight, but it'll side slip and luff the sails and not go anywhere near a 90 deg. no-fly zone. Not my boat with my antique bed sheet sails, at least.

Forestay tension and jib car position are vital factors when pushing up into the wind.

Someday I'll check my mast rake and shroud tension.
But I have no idea what to do with the cars. I know what they're supposed to be for, and how they're supposed to work, but I've no idea how to decide where to set them in any given circumstance.
And, frankly, I've never seen the point. The armpit** rails interfere with any proper angle from car blocks to jib clew.

Are you talking about the jib, or the genoa? My jib flies just fine, but MacGregor put the SS rails right in the way of the genoa sheets. I have to constantly undo the stopper knot, move the sheet inside or outside the rail when moving the car, and re-thread it and knot it again. They really couldn't have put that rail in a worse place.

[DaveC426913]

Are you talking about the jib, or the genoa?

Er. Right.
In the years I've owned SeaSaw, I've never flown anything but the genny. Probably never will. I like my furler too much.

If I ever get a single-line reefing system, I'll never have to leave the bucket again.

[Newell]

Racing my D, the low profile cousin to the M, my tack line to mark is 44 D. My X, is best raced as a one design if you can find a venue, but tack at 55 D or if way below mark, when the mark appears behind a line from the stern of the boat . I think winning races has more to do with taking advantage of wind shifts and other skipper's mistakes. I keep my jib cars 3 holes from the back and lines over the rails (mostly). Throw everything, including the cushions, cooler and junk out of the boat.

[Bluecrab]

Throw everything, including the cushions, cooler and junk out of the boat.

I have see the serious racers pile everything not needed out on the dock, cover with tarps and don't let their crew bring anything aboard. Also practice with crew in the parking lot getting them in position calling out tacks, sail changes and such.

[sailboatmike]

Crew communication is a much missed aspect of sailing, I raced on a fellow club members gun race boat a few months ago, it was hull, I had no idea what line was what and there was no foreplanning as to what was going to happen when, we were getting our butt handed to us seriously bad.

I took the time during a long run leg to explain to the skipper that we needed notice of what the plan was and at which point we would gybe to make the mark and what each persons job would be, needless to say after that it went much smoother and we actually picked up a couple of places.

So yes letting the crew know the plan and giving them a couple of minutes warning and telling them their job for the maneuver saves a lot of shouting and gesturing and losing vital yards on every tack or gybe

[MikeFloutier]

Racing my D, the low profile cousin to the M, my tack line to mark is 44 D. My X, is best raced as a one design if you can find a venue, but tack at 55 D or if way below mark, when the mark appears behind a line from the stern of the boat . I think winning races has more to do with taking advantage of wind shifts and other skipper's mistakes. I keep my jib cars 3 holes from the back and lines over the rails (mostly). Throw everything, including the cushions, cooler and junk out of the boat.

Thanks for this, but I'm not understanding the "D", eg. In 55 D. (Edit: aah, I'm now guessing D = degrees )

Is 55 deg off true wind a ball-park "Best VMG angle" for an M or X?

My feeling is that would be pretty safe.

So, when aiming for 55 deg, when looking for a lay line into my next mark, without any fancy software, I take it that I'll be waiting until the bearing to next Mark (relative to my heading) is 110 deg - +/- any allowance for wind/current.

Beginning to wish for a crew, is autopilot use permitted do you know?

[BOAT]

Man, I read these posts several times over many days and I'm still confused.

First off, the lay line is the line you need to achieve on the last tack - and the reason your tacking is because your trying to go UPWIND! Otherwise, why tack?? Then you folks are talking about Spinnakers and I am trying to figure out what the heck a spinnaker is going to do when your sailing into the wind??? So I'm really lost.

Couple of things: If your in the M boat with a genny it's better to sail reallllllly far on your tacks at realllly high speed - do best speed and do it for longer tacks. If your in a D boat then put up a working jib and point the boat just like any other boat.

But if your in an M boat, well, the M boat is a cruiser - so by using long tacks it gives you a strategic ability to gauge your progress against the other boats a little better - while they are all madly tacking back and forth trying to point as high as possible with the smallest head-sail they have you just stay on one long tack going as fast as you can on that big genny. You do everything you can to keep up enough speed to try to keep up with the crowd even though your sailing away from them - gauge your progress by sighting the group through some fixed hardware on the deck like stanchions or winches and make sure your staying ahead of them.

Then make a tack to see how you end up - you might cross a mile behind them - that means you tack too late, OR if they were so busy trying to point and they were slow - you cross RIGHT BEHIND THEM! That means you kept up with them on YOUR point of sail! Do that again and again and then when you reach the lay line at the end of the race you will have a very exiting time, and you will also shock the hull out of a lot of other people when you suddenly appear right in the middle of the pack after sailing most the day far away from them.

I have won third and forth place doing this strategy on other cruising type boats I have raced in regattas - it throws off the other skippers so bad that at the awards dinners there is always a protest where someone accuses me of cheating. (Although, I do on occasion cheat - I am way too good at it to ever get caught). Never have been caught.

Just remember- you can't compete head to head with the class boats - you need to play to your strengths and hope they go slower because they are not expecting you.

[NiceAft]

Man, I read these posts several times over many days and I'm still confused.

First off, the lay line is the line you need to achieve on the last tack - and the reason your tacking is because your trying to go UPWIND! Otherwise, why tack?? Then you folks are talking about Spinnakers and I am trying to figure out what the heck a spinnaker is going to do when your sailing into the wind??? So I'm really lost.

Couple of things: If your in the M boat with a genny it's better to sail reallllllly far on your tacks at realllly high speed - do best speed and do it for longer tacks. If your in a D boat then put up a working jib and point the boat just like any other boat.

But if your in an M boat, well, the M boat is a cruiser - so by using long tacks it gives you a strategic ability to gauge your progress against the other boats a little better - while they are all madly tacking back and forth trying to point as high as possible with the smallest head-sail they have you just stay on one long tack going as fast as you can on that big genny. You do everything you can to keep up enough speed to try to keep up with the crowd even though your sailing away from them - gauge your progress by sighting the group through some fixed hardware on the deck like stanchions or winches and make sure your staying ahead of them.

Then make a tack to see how you end up - you might cross a mile behind them - that means you tack too late, OR if they were so busy trying to point and they were slow - you cross RIGHT BEHIND THEM! That means you kept up with them on YOUR point of sail! Do that again and again and then when you reach the lay line at the end of the race you will have a very exiting time, and you will also shock the hull out of a lot of other people when you suddenly appear right in the middle of the pack after sailing most the day far away from them.

I have won third and forth place doing this strategy on other cruising type boats I have raced in regattas - it throws off the other skippers so bad that at the awards dinners there is always a protest where someone accuses me of cheating. (Although, I do on occasion cheat - I am way too good at it to ever get caught). Never have been caught.

Just remember- you can't compete head to head with the class boats - you need to play to your strengths and hope they go slower because they are not expecting you.

Interesting racing advise BOAT.

Ray