California Coastal Cruising on a Macgregor 25?

[jollyroger47]

I have already posted a question on this forum about the Macgregor 25's capabilities asking whether or not it would be safe to sail on the coast of California. While I did get mixed reviews I am still wondering about the limits of a 25 foot sailboat, in particular a Macgregor 25.

I am a novice, or even a beginner sailor, but have grown up surfing and am comfortable around the water. I purchased my Macgregor 25 back in March of this year with the intention of really learning how to sail. As a novice or beginner boat owner, I was going into the purchase of this boat thinking I would have no problem sailing it down to Central America if I wanted to, (granted while still knowing that I needed to learn how to sail). Well I was told otherwise by the marine surveyor and a handful of other people who didn't really strike me as the seafaring type. They told me I shouldn't even take my boat out of the bay, which left me really disappointed and scratching my head.

My question is this: Do you think if I were to hire a delivery captain and sail it with him or her, on my Macgregor 25, that it could be sailed from the San Francisco bay to the Santa Barbara area safely? I would really like to sail it down to Southern California versus trailering it down there, and I am thinking it would make for a really good learning experience for someone like myself who is looking to really learn how to sail. I would appreciate any seasoned advice.

Thanks for reading,

Jolly

[kadet]

I don't mean to come across sounding harsh or critical of your intentions as we all have to start somewhere, but in asking them you show you are not ready. You would be better off signing up for a sail training course and then volunteer as crew at your local marina and do some twilight racing or cruising to get experience. A deliver captain has a job to do they are not their to teach newbie captains how to sail. You would need to know how to setup your boat for some limited offshore work, emergency and safety equipment, spares, storm gear etc.. A Mac 25 is not an ideal choice for this kind of sailing but it is more about the captain than the boat.

Now to try and answer your questions.

If there are safe harbours and anchorages that are spread down the coast with no more than an overnight sail between them this is more than doable in almost any boat. Treat it as series of day sails one after the other. The problem is if you are on a schedule you will have to wait for weather windows and only sail in appropriate conditions. This has caught out many a captain who has put to sea when they shouldn't have, keelers included. Also do the harbours have a bar crossing? In what conditions are they safe to cross? If caught out what is an alternative? Do you know the local weather patterns?

The biggest issue with your original plan to sail to south America is the Ms are lightly built and would require maintenance and other repairs along the way. They do not have redundant systems like emergency steering and cannot carry large amounts of stores especially fuel for the outboard should the rigging fail. Remember you will no longer be in the USA and there maybe no help available down there so you will need to be self sufficient. Though not undoable again there are better options and if you do not know what you are doing it would be very unsafe.

My strong advice would be get some experience, get to know your boat then you can decide for yourself what she is capable of or if you need something better suited to your needs.

[sailboatmike]

My suggestion is get a whole lot more experience before attempting such a trip, the ocean is a big nasty place especially for smallish sailboats, this is made much worse by inexperienced crew.

In reality learn how to sail, spend many many hours learning your boat and your own limitations, it is more likely that your limitations are far less than the boats if the boat is properly prepared, people have sailed across the Atlantic is boats 1/2 the size but they were good experienced sailors who had many years sailing under their belt.

Many more boats have been lost due to poor crew skills than the boats ability to handle the conditions

Of course the other consideration is, do you have the safety equipment required by law for offshore sailing, things like EPIRBS, life rafts, AIS, rocket flares or whatever the coastguard says you must carry, I know the list is pretty extensive over here as soon as we go more than 2nm off the coast

[BOAT]

As I read your post I see you have the MAC 25 not the M boat.

It's hard to give advice about that boat - I am unfamiliar with it. As for the capabilities of the 25 : there is a person on this site that has indeed sailed the 25 on very long ocean passages and has covered the kind of mileage your referring to albeit on the East coast, not the West. His name is sumner.

Captain sumner has his boat fully provisioned and he is an expert on repairs and can also dive. If you are not an expert on repairs, or cannot dive, (your boat should have a swing keel - any captain with a swing keel should have the ability to dive on the keel in the case of an emergency) or not fully provisioned then you should not make the trip.

[K9Kampers]

OTOH - Get a big enough boat to compensate for your lack of experience...and money, preferably both!

Check out the adventures of the couple that call themselves 'Bumfuzzle'. They made a bunch of money and decided to sail around the world, despite their lack of experience. Their big boat got them half way around the world, then a lot of money got their boat seaworthy again to continue. Four years on the ocean turned into a lifestyle of jumping into one adventure after another despite lack of experience. Their story is on the internet, so it must be true!

[Sumner]

... there is a person on this site that has indeed sailed the 25 on very long ocean passages and has covered the kind of mileage your referring to albeit on the East coast, not the West. His name is sumner.....

Actually I have a 26S and although I've gone to the Bahamas with it I wouldn't compare that to going from San Francisco south to Central America. Chinook on here has gone greater distances than I by far having gone to Alaska and back. The Sea of Cortez, the Bahamas a couple time and further east there than I.

There is one person that has taken the trip from San Franciso to Central America with a Mac 26S.....



Bucko ...

http://lbucko.tripod.com/index.html

I'll bet at some point it won't be on the internet any longer. I should archive it somehow. I've read the trip log some time back and it is a trip I would not want to take. Anyone notice how many hurricanes and tropical storms have already developed this year off the west coast of Mexico? It is quiet there now but there has been one after the other.

The Mac, any of them, is not the right boat for the trip the OP wants to take. I'd recommend reading 20 SMALL BOATS THAT WILL TAKE YOU ANYWHERE ...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008PYM0Z6/re ... TF8&btkr=1

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[BOAT]

I sailed extensively in the Sea of Cortez as a youth and I can tell you it's extremely un-predictable in regards to dangerous winds that come up without warning. Mooring close to a sandy shore away from rocks is important because even at a nice sandy mooring it can look peacful one minute:


and crazy the next:



You can avoid a lot of the hurricane activity by hugging the coastline when your on the west coast of Baja but there are no safe harbors - I would not exclusively sail-only the west coast of Baja myself because there are not enough safe harbors and really, even for the pros it's not the best and fastest way to traverse the peninsula in a small boat because there are not enough safe harbors on the west side to protect you when traveling. The best way if you use a small boat is to do it as a trailer sailor by launching the boat from a safe harbor or beach - the best way to travel in a sailboat down Baja is in your pickup truck towing the boat behind you on Hwy 1:

[BOAT]

There are a shortage of launch ramps but many of the beaches are hard sand because of the extensive tide activity, especially in San Felipe - you can indeed launch from a beach in Baja because our boats are so light:


Back in the day you could even make friends with the locals and they would include you in the rounds every morning you were in port for the daily hot fresh bread runs:



They would make the bread starting early in the morning around 2AM we could smell the bread ovens firing up and by 5AM fresh bread!!


Cruising Mexico is a religion down here where I am - every year there is a huge pilgrimage of people in boats headed down the West Coast of Baja - but on the small sailboats the only ones I see are the heavy boats with the big ling keels and the submarine like decks that can take the waves. I don't think it's a good trip for a real light boat.

[paul I]

My question is this: Do you think if I were to hire a delivery captain and sail it with him or her, on my Macgregor 25, that it could be sailed from the San Francisco bay to the Santa Barbara area safely? I would really like to sail it down to Southern California versus trailering it down there, and I am thinking it would make for a really good learning experience for someone like myself who is looking to really learn how to sail. I would appreciate any seasoned advice.

I did something very similar when I purchased my first boat. It was a fixed keel Hunter 31. I had never sailed at all before but my wife at the time had. She loved to go out sailing with her dad, but did not truly have a working knowledge about how to do it. Her dad did all the heavy lifting. Anyway I purchased the Hunter because she thought sailing was an activity we would grow to enjoy. I also got it through a friend of her family who sold it to us amazingly cheap.

The boat was located in Sandusky, Ohio. It had to be moved to the other end of Lake Erie near Buffalo, NY, then through the Welland Canal and into lake Ontario, and finally to berthed in Port Dalhousie Canada which would be its home for our first few years of ownership. Port Dalhousie was a 30 minute ride from where I was living, and the currency exchange at the time made it very economical to keep it in Canada. This was a heavy lead keel boat and the cost to transport it over land was prohibitive ($4,500 I believe). I called sailing associations around the Sandusky area with the idea of hiring a charter captain. I got a few recommendations and finally connected with a captain that we both liked. He was retired and supplemented his retirement by taking people out for charters in his Island Packet. The deal was for him to sail the boat while teaching us about it and giving us lessons along the way. This was to take a minimum of 5 days providing all the weather windows lined up perfectly (they didn't of course). Sailing days were to be roughly sunup to sunset. Overnights would be spent docked at Yacht clubs with all of us sleeping on the boat (luckily it had two separate sleeping berths). Since the captain had reciprocal privileges for pretty much every yacht club on Lake Erie, there was no cost involved with the overnights. The cost was to be $100 per day for his fee plus any expenses (these were late 1980's dollars). I also had to supply all meals and either provide or pay for his return transportation back to Ohio.

We did just that. It started out with us getting to Ohio a few days in advance to gather provisions (based on his recommended list) and meet him for an inspection of the boat to make sure we had all the necessary safety equipment, some of which had to be purchased, like fresh flares and proper life jackets. We needed a few new lines and some bed linens. We also had to arrange insurance. He had a boat US membership we could use if we ran into problems and needed towing or other assistance. Once underway he started the education process... what the safety requirements were, the rules of the road, navigation, lighting, how to keep course, how to read the weather, how to read charts and compasses (this was way before GPS systems were an affordable option). For entire days we either sailed, motored, or motor-sailed, depending on the wind. We chose overnights based on his experience and recommendations in the cruising guides he brought along with him. These came in very handy when it came to getting past the lift bridges leading into some ports. He explained points of sail, did some emergency drills (MOB, heave to, etc). We did have a few setbacks including a grounding in mud at a marina and a bilge pump which stopped functioning. Water started collecting in the bilge at a worrisome rate and required us to bail with a manual bilge pump for a day and a half. We had to purchase a new pump in port, and he installed it as he had even brought a basic tool set for the trip. We found out later that we had a leaky through hull.

In the end it took 7 days, including the last day which was spent navigating through the Welland canal. In all, that charter represented 50% of my sailing education (all the rest comes from experience and practice). He demonstrated everything, he explained all the terminology, and once he taught us, we took over and did real time practice. It was the best experience I could hope for and it got that boat transported. Eventually I had to drive back to Ohio and retrieve the cradle for storing on the hard.

So what you are asking can be done. I did it, I enjoyed it, and it was very educational. But its only the start of the real education. Getting good at it is going to take a good portion of time. That being said, if it were a trailerable boat like a Mac instead of a fixed keel Hunter, I would have not hesitated in the least to trailer it from OH to NY. And once ready, I would have set up beginner, then intermediate, and then advanced sailing lessons over the course of months and years. And that is my advise to you as well. My captain knew what he was doing, he knew the area and was well prepared. We were not sailing in an ocean off shore. We were sailing across a Great Lake in pretty good weather and never out of reach from emergency services. Take your time and learn how to sail gradually as you build experience. A crash course can be accomplished, but why do it that way if you don't have to. The lesson is one thing, but it is limited on the experience end.

As for your plans to sail to South America, maybe your Mac is capable of it once you get to know it well and get it outfitted to your needs, but it is certainly not the ideal boat for an ocean voyage like that... far from it. When you finally do get enough sailing experience to make that kind of voyage (probably not for at least 5 years or so) you'll know then if its something you'd want to attempt in a Mac. My guess is you wont. These are trailerable sailboats. They are meant to be driven to South America and launched for short sails and excursions, not sailed there from a different continent. They are not true blue water craft, but they can be used in that way by someone who is experienced enough to understand their limitations. I've been sailing for over 25 years now, and I wouldn't make that voyage in a Mac... just sayin.

[Tomfoolery]

Looks like an Aquarius convention, BOAT. If I had been there with my A7.0, it would have been the odd duck in the bunch, for sure.

[BOAT]

Looks like an Aquarius convention, BOAT. If I had been there with my A7.0, it would have been the odd duck in the bunch, for sure.

But we all would be drooling over your retractable rear transom mounted rudder to be sure as many of us were struggling to get that in hull rudder up and out of the well in time to ram the beach!!
In those shallows you need to get that rudder out of the way fast!



A couple of folks bent rudder shafts. One was fixed with a blow torch we borrowed from a guy in the village that ran an auto body repair shop but the other rudder was so bent so bad we could not get the rudder out of the well!! In that one we had to dive on the boat with a come-along and straps to get the rudder straight enough to remove it from the well. The shaft is soft as a failure point to keep you from busting out the well and sinking the boat just like the daggerboard on the M is weak to prevent you from cracking the DB well. If I sail Mexico in 'boat' I WILL be carrying a spare daggerboard under the aft berth! (You never know!)

That was the major weak link on that boat and that reason you boat was designed differently.

At night in the raft ups my dad would have me entertain the other boats to keep them from getting nervous in the squalls. We sailed in ALL weather, good or bad. They were crazy.

[Tomfoolery]

But we all would be drooling over your retractable rear transom mounted rudder to be sure as many of us were struggling to get that in hull rudder up and out of the well in time to ram the beach!!
In those shallows you need to get that rudder out of the way fast!

For those who are mildly curious, all of those Aquarius 23's had a cantilevered balanced (I think) rudder in a 'cassette' that plugged into a rectangular opening with a raised coaming in the cockpit sole, and you raised the whole thing to clear the bottom or for trailering. The A7.0 was the same boat, but with a stern mounted rudder on a long SS hinge rod, which used a 2-part block system, which you can just see on the rudder above the bottom paint, to raise and hold it (it was very heavy).





The OB was, by necessity, mounted on an adjustable mount to the side, and it had a masthead rig instead of the fractional rig of the A23. But other than that, it was the same basic boat, which was later folded into the Balboa line without change.

You guys all together like that look like the common power boat raftups around here. Looks like a great time. Ahhhhh, the 70's.

[BOAT]

Yeah, you think that transom rudder was heavy - HA! Just try lifting that huge balanced rudder AND the steel rudder post AND the huge fiberglass block (with the 1 inch thick teak wood trim on top of it!) out of that well! It was like lifting a wet sack of cement out of a hole with one hand while at the same time your trying to look ahead to see how close you are to the beach! And if the rudder was turned you could not lift it thru the well - it had to be pointing forward and took up a lot of room in the cockpit because you needed to put it somewhere when it was not in the well anymore (sometimes we would only pull it up partially - but hit the ground like that and you can rip a hole in the boat!)

The rear mounted rudder was better for beaching and improved the balance enough to allow for a mast head jib, but it was slower to tack and eliminated one of my favorite racing cheats - (sculling the rudder).

(Hey, what can I say?)

The A7.0 was faster because of the mast head rig. That outboard rudder made it possible.

[Catigale]

Paul ..I made that same trip from Lorain to Wilson in May 2002 on a 32 foot Emerson.

In early Spring, lake temp is 40F, if you go down, you are dead before the CG gets to you.