Pete, you bring a good point to the string. I do think, based on what was presented, that Woods isn't someone who return work should be sent to. Sure, they may have made a mistake with the lock nuts (most reasonable explination, short of sabatoge) and mistakes do happen. But, not doing the right thing by accepting responsibility for the subsequent damage paints a very clear picture of what will very likely happen in the future.
I've seen 'completed' brake jobs sent out to customers where the calipers weren't bolted to their mounts - all cleared for pick-up. In this case, the engine - clearely a safety item - was apparently not properly secured. Had that rod been a steering component and come loose at full throttle and the motor swung full, this could have been a very, very bad situation. Engine work is very serious and should be taken that way.
Burning bridges is never a good thing - unless the bridge only brings problems. What happens when this dealer 'completes' another piece of work on a critical safety feature, say a fuel component and a fire results.
At the very least, the better business bureau should be contacted. It's the right thing to do. We all gotta watch out for each other. If Woods, or any other dealer, wants to conduct business on items where something going wrong could hurt someone, then something should be done.
Honda 50 + Wood Boat and Motor (rant - never again!)
Paul,
do the small court thing, but first find ANOTHER dealer to fix the prob, no matter the cost. I learned the hard way a leopard doesn't change its spots-- bail that woods outfit. Now is your chance to make lemonade out of a lemon-- go for the RELIABLE tohatsu 90 horse. You will have an un believable power boat that still sails great. Sure it will cost extra-- but nothing in the grand scheme of expensive motor boat things. Dump the honda or throw it on a whaler or inflatable.
Rolf
do the small court thing, but first find ANOTHER dealer to fix the prob, no matter the cost. I learned the hard way a leopard doesn't change its spots-- bail that woods outfit. Now is your chance to make lemonade out of a lemon-- go for the RELIABLE tohatsu 90 horse. You will have an un believable power boat that still sails great. Sure it will cost extra-- but nothing in the grand scheme of expensive motor boat things. Dump the honda or throw it on a whaler or inflatable.
Rolf
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expertinho
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:21 am
- Location: Florida, New Engalnd
- Contact:
Canadian Hondas
Just wanted to reply to Mr Seeberg's accusations regarding his Honda Problems.
First and foremost the original cause of his problem (as both Honda of NOrth America and Wood boat and motor can testify and as Mr. seeberg admitted and later denied) was due to running the motor dry or improperly cooled. Water pump impellers do not fail when not used, particularly on a new motor. Mr. Seeberg confessed to my assistant Bob Cardoza, that he ran the motor in his driveway. This is a dangerous process even with the required flush kit and is a formula for disaster if done for more than a few short minutes.
Mr. Seebergs repairs were paid for by havencraft in spite of the HOnda Tech's insistence that they were not a warranty item and were due to customer neglect.
The motors purchased in Canada by Havencraft in 2003 (in order that discounts might be passed along to the customers) were all self warrantied by the company. I have had only 2 cases where any repairs were required on Hondas (a tilt motor failure on a vessel in Maine and Mr. Seeberg's cooling system failure.) Both of these were paid for in full by Havencraft though the ladder would under no circumstances be covered by warranty. Havencraft ceased purchasing Hondas in Canada 2 years ago. It was a duty free importation under Nafta but the exchange rate was no longer as advantageous.
We are now selling more Suzuki 50's than Hondas as customers prefer the longer warranty and the fuel injection.
First and foremost the original cause of his problem (as both Honda of NOrth America and Wood boat and motor can testify and as Mr. seeberg admitted and later denied) was due to running the motor dry or improperly cooled. Water pump impellers do not fail when not used, particularly on a new motor. Mr. Seeberg confessed to my assistant Bob Cardoza, that he ran the motor in his driveway. This is a dangerous process even with the required flush kit and is a formula for disaster if done for more than a few short minutes.
Mr. Seebergs repairs were paid for by havencraft in spite of the HOnda Tech's insistence that they were not a warranty item and were due to customer neglect.
The motors purchased in Canada by Havencraft in 2003 (in order that discounts might be passed along to the customers) were all self warrantied by the company. I have had only 2 cases where any repairs were required on Hondas (a tilt motor failure on a vessel in Maine and Mr. Seeberg's cooling system failure.) Both of these were paid for in full by Havencraft though the ladder would under no circumstances be covered by warranty. Havencraft ceased purchasing Hondas in Canada 2 years ago. It was a duty free importation under Nafta but the exchange rate was no longer as advantageous.
We are now selling more Suzuki 50's than Hondas as customers prefer the longer warranty and the fuel injection.
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Paul S
- Site Admin
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- Sailboat: Other
- Location: Boston, MA
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The motor was run once with earmuffs to confirm it worked, after I installed the gas tanks, for about 10 seconds. It was never run dry. I never burned out an impeller on our old O/D after 12 years of ownership of our old boat. I am not new to this.
Havencraft has been great to deal with and has bent over backwards for us, and we appreciate it.
I still think Wood did not lock the linkage properly after the impeller repair, and is the cause of this failure.
Paul
Havencraft has been great to deal with and has bent over backwards for us, and we appreciate it.
I still think Wood did not lock the linkage properly after the impeller repair, and is the cause of this failure.
Paul
I read back through Paul S's comments on this board. I didn't get the impression he was bad mouthing Havencraft at all...
In fact, he noted that Havencraft covered the cost of his impeller repair, out of their own pocket, which is difficult to read negatively on Havencraft...
He is obviously upset about Woods' apparent lack of competent service, hence the title of this thread...
He was also apparently surprised to learn his motor wasn't covered by Honda USA. His comments in that regard weren't anywhere as negative as mine would have been upon learning that at such a late stage.
According to your own statement, Havencraft apparently made the business decision to import Honda motors from Canada at a reduced cost "(in order that discounts might be passed along to the customers)". Of course, who "you" are hasn't been established... Its easy to guess...
In my mind, that's a great plan if the customers new that upfront, and knew that Honda USA wouldn't cover them as a result. However, that doesn't appear to be the case here.
In my mind, a customer not knowing that does reflect poorly on Havencraft.
So, as I see it, the only thing Havencraft has to be concerned with is Paul S's comments leading one to believe he didn't know about the import issue, if in fact he did. That should be an easy issue to resolve. When I bought my engine, there was all kinds of paperwork, including a warranty form. I'd assume Havencraft, if properly informing their customers of the issue/(cost savings), would cover themselves by having their customers sign some sort of acknowledgement form, or better yet a Havencraft issued warranty form...
Did anything like that happen? Did Havencraft inform their US customers that they were buying Canadian motors only warrantied by Havencraft?
In any case, it looks as though that is no longer an issue, because, as you say, Havencraft doesn't do that anymore...
In fact, he noted that Havencraft covered the cost of his impeller repair, out of their own pocket, which is difficult to read negatively on Havencraft...
He is obviously upset about Woods' apparent lack of competent service, hence the title of this thread...
He was also apparently surprised to learn his motor wasn't covered by Honda USA. His comments in that regard weren't anywhere as negative as mine would have been upon learning that at such a late stage.
According to your own statement, Havencraft apparently made the business decision to import Honda motors from Canada at a reduced cost "(in order that discounts might be passed along to the customers)". Of course, who "you" are hasn't been established... Its easy to guess...
In my mind, that's a great plan if the customers new that upfront, and knew that Honda USA wouldn't cover them as a result. However, that doesn't appear to be the case here.
In my mind, a customer not knowing that does reflect poorly on Havencraft.
So, as I see it, the only thing Havencraft has to be concerned with is Paul S's comments leading one to believe he didn't know about the import issue, if in fact he did. That should be an easy issue to resolve. When I bought my engine, there was all kinds of paperwork, including a warranty form. I'd assume Havencraft, if properly informing their customers of the issue/(cost savings), would cover themselves by having their customers sign some sort of acknowledgement form, or better yet a Havencraft issued warranty form...
Did anything like that happen? Did Havencraft inform their US customers that they were buying Canadian motors only warrantied by Havencraft?
In any case, it looks as though that is no longer an issue, because, as you say, Havencraft doesn't do that anymore...
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Jeff Drumm
- Chief Steward
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:39 am
- Location: 43 54' 03" N 69 59' 47" W 2002 26X "Wasabe"
As I mentioned in a previous post, I wasn't informed of the Canadian origin of the motor when I purchased my boat from Havencraft/Millennium in February of 2003, and was surprised (and not a little upset) with that fact when I needed service for my hydraulic tilt.
A call to Otho @ Havencraft/Millennium, however, elicited immediate and very satisfactory response; he has been a pleasure to deal with throughout and I would not hesitate to recommend him to anyone considering the purchase of MacGregor. Both he and Bob Cardoza (miss ya, Bob!) have been nothing but helpful and accommodating during the purchase, break-in and warranty period of my boat.
I agree, some form of up-front notification that there is no US Factory warranty on the Hondas and that all claims would be handled by Havencraft/Millennium would have eliminated any potential consternation on the part of customers, but that now appears to be a non-issue since they're no longer importing Canadian motors.
A call to Otho @ Havencraft/Millennium, however, elicited immediate and very satisfactory response; he has been a pleasure to deal with throughout and I would not hesitate to recommend him to anyone considering the purchase of MacGregor. Both he and Bob Cardoza (miss ya, Bob!) have been nothing but helpful and accommodating during the purchase, break-in and warranty period of my boat.
I agree, some form of up-front notification that there is no US Factory warranty on the Hondas and that all claims would be handled by Havencraft/Millennium would have eliminated any potential consternation on the part of customers, but that now appears to be a non-issue since they're no longer importing Canadian motors.
Last edited by Jeff Drumm on Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1672
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:50 am
- Sailboat: Other
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Thanks....DLT wrote:I read back through Paul S's comments on this board. I didn't get the impression he was bad mouthing Havencraft at all...
In fact, he noted that Havencraft covered the cost of his impeller repair, out of their own pocket, which is difficult to read negatively on Havencraft...
He is obviously upset about Woods' apparent lack of competent service, hence the title of this thread...
He was also apparently surprised to learn his motor wasn't covered by Honda USA. His comments in that regard weren't anywhere as negative as mine would have been upon learning that at such a late stage.
According to your own statement, Havencraft apparently made the business decision to import Honda motors from Canada at a reduced cost "(in order that discounts might be passed along to the customers)". Of course, who "you" are hasn't been established... Its easy to guess...
In my mind, that's a great plan if the customers new that upfront, and knew that Honda USA wouldn't cover them as a result. However, that doesn't appear to be the case here.
In my mind, a customer not knowing that does reflect poorly on Havencraft.
So, as I see it, the only thing Havencraft has to be concerned with is Paul S's comments leading one to believe he didn't know about the import issue, if in fact he did. That should be an easy issue to resolve. When I bought my engine, there was all kinds of paperwork, including a warranty form. I'd assume Havencraft, if properly informing their customers of the issue/(cost savings), would cover themselves by having their customers sign some sort of acknowledgement form, or better yet a Havencraft issued warranty form...
Did anything like that happen? Did Havencraft inform their US customers that they were buying Canadian motors only warrantied by Havencraft?
In any case, it looks as though that is no longer an issue, because, as you say, Havencraft doesn't do that anymore...
I know I can rant on a lot about something minor/stupid...sometimes I just need a place to vent.
I have never said anything negative about Havencraft. Most of my earlier posts (about initial delivery, etc) I did not even post the dealer name. Even after some of my bad experiences, I have always made positive comments and recommend Havencraft.
Havencraft/Otho has been great. After we bought the first hull (#225), saw it in person, did not like it and wanted repairs made before delivery, Otho gave us a brand new hull (#360) which had it's problems, don't get me wrong, but was far better than #225. He honored the price of the original boat, honored the original shipping cost. He had Bob C come to my house and rig it, install a bunch of stuff with me in my yard. He even delivered the boat right into my driveway from his rigger in PA.
Otho has always either answered the phone on the first ring, or called back quickly every time. He even let us use his boat in FL for a week when we bought ours.
The only blemish is that I thought I bought a Honda USA motor, and stupidly called Honda USA, who then told me it was a Canadian model. So I felt like an idiot. I still do not know where I stand on warranty work. But, after talking with Honda, apparently if the motor is ever run, it is not covered. I quote from the honda rep "If the motor fails while it is being used, it is not considered a mfr defect" If someone could tell me how a motor can fail it is NOT run, I would loooove to hear how that could happen.
The only other bad mark was when we took delivery. I was not super happy (putting it mildly), as a lot of you can remember, with the condition of the boat. But as many of you pointed out, a lot of that could be my perspective and higher than avg expectations. The options (roller, etc) should have been installed before delivery and the hull should have been in better condition, IMO. Almost everything has been corrected over time..either by Havencraft or by me.
After talking with Otho yesterday, he said Wood will service my motor at the end of the season no charge. We will have to see if they honor that. So it will end up being a wash $ wise. But I still feel that I am being accused of screwing with the linkage (they did accuse me of that BTW). I would rather have them fix this no charge and I pay for the winterizing.
Not happy with the outcome with Wood, but on the positive side, they took my boat the same day I called, repaired it fast. Can't say if I recommend them or not at this point. Still pi$$ at being accused of ***ing with the linkage/lower unit. I can't even change the oil, never mind play with the gearing.
Paul
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Sloop John B
- Captain
- Posts: 871
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:45 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Florida 'Big Bend'. 02x Yamaha T50
Moe, you have a Suzuki. Are we sure the linkage has to be disconnected for the Honda lower end? Yamaha just drops right out. There must be some Honda guys that can confirm this. Or maybe this another thing Moe knows for sure.
Several years ago, when shopping for a motor (the Canadian dollar could be bought for 67 cents) the Canadian motors were thousands less and I assumed they were therefore 'different'. Same with the guys giving quotes for motors they bought in Australia.
Best I could do stateside was get a motor about $800 below dealer retail.
Labor for connecting the shifter? Most of us have done this and the tough part is lifting the cowling up over the engine. If they charge $300 an hour, you owe them a buck. Maybe a buck fifty.
The negligence in connecting the shifter has to be the 'proximate cause' of damage to the boat. Tough case, but it can be argued. I mean you werent in the middle of a hurricane. Could the damage be reasonably foreseen? I would argue so.
Like picking up a new Buick, stepping on the gas, and the car rockets through the New York Life building killing hundreds of women and children. Liability goes all the way back to Detroit.
Several years ago, when shopping for a motor (the Canadian dollar could be bought for 67 cents) the Canadian motors were thousands less and I assumed they were therefore 'different'. Same with the guys giving quotes for motors they bought in Australia.
Best I could do stateside was get a motor about $800 below dealer retail.
Labor for connecting the shifter? Most of us have done this and the tough part is lifting the cowling up over the engine. If they charge $300 an hour, you owe them a buck. Maybe a buck fifty.
The negligence in connecting the shifter has to be the 'proximate cause' of damage to the boat. Tough case, but it can be argued. I mean you werent in the middle of a hurricane. Could the damage be reasonably foreseen? I would argue so.
Like picking up a new Buick, stepping on the gas, and the car rockets through the New York Life building killing hundreds of women and children. Liability goes all the way back to Detroit.
No, Moe made an assumption based on Paul's description in the opening message.Sloop John B wrote:Moe, you have a Suzuki. Are we sure the linkage has to be disconnected for the Honda lower end? Yamaha just drops right out. There must be some Honda guys that can confirm this. Or maybe this another thing Moe knows for sure.
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Paul S
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1672
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:50 am
- Sailboat: Other
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Well it is over now. Got the boat back.
Talked with the owner. They put loctite on the threads so they don't back out again. Still charged me for the service. Denied any responsibility of the problem.
Also, about the break on my next service. I must have misunderstood...they are not giving me a free service. Just a 10% discount on my next service. That certainly didn't blow wind up my skirt.
I am done with Wood. I have got to find another mechanic closer (wood is 50+ miles from me). Out $75. Own an illegal motor.
might as well chuck it up to a learning experience.
Paul
Talked with the owner. They put loctite on the threads so they don't back out again. Still charged me for the service. Denied any responsibility of the problem.
Also, about the break on my next service. I must have misunderstood...they are not giving me a free service. Just a 10% discount on my next service. That certainly didn't blow wind up my skirt.
I am done with Wood. I have got to find another mechanic closer (wood is 50+ miles from me). Out $75. Own an illegal motor.
might as well chuck it up to a learning experience.
Paul
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Bob Zoobricke
- Deckhand
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:46 pm
- Location: New Jersey
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Frank C
Paul,Paul S wrote: ... Talked with the owner. They put loctite on the threads so they don't back out again. Still charged me for the service. Denied any responsibility of the problem. .... I am done with Wood. I have got to find another mechanic closer (wood is 50+ miles from me). Out $75.
It's glaringly evident, to even the most casual reader, that if Woods repaired the water pump last year, it was his negligent reassembly that caused your latest shifter problem. It's undoubtedly clear to him too, so his $75 charge just to reconnect that shifter rod, is simply evidence that the dealership must have a "rape, pillage & burn" customer mentality.
Two minutes effort and a dab of locktite (to fix the dealer's own error!!) .... would have engendered a winterizing job, a nice dose of customer good will and a word of polite endorsement on the forum. Considering the numbers of Mac owners in Havencraft's immediate region ... How terribly short-sighted of him! Guess we need a Prouty dunce-cap for the "exemplary customer service."
BTW, Sloop, the Suzuki DF60 shift rod (prob the DF50 also?) is a simple, foolproof cotter pin linkage. Needs no locktite, but it's definitely a challenge to get that tiny cotter pin inserted ...
sounds as if it would be 4 minutes and $150 labor for the Suzuki!
Last edited by Frank C on Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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argonaut
- Captain
- Posts: 531
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:23 pm
- Location: '97 26X, Yammy 40 4s, Central Fla.
The Honda service manual describes reconnecting the shift linkage rod in detail as a step in replacing the impeller and/or water pump.
Tightening the jam nut keeps what happened from happening.
It may have never been reconnected in the first place unless you're sure both forward and reverse worked after servicing. If neither nut was tightened, even with the upper & lower rods disconnected you'd be able to get it in forward as the upper rod would push the lower rod down into position. Once down though you'd be stuck in fwd with no connection between the rods.
Regardless, tightening the jam nut is part of servicing the lower unit and it's bogus to charge you $75 for that, you didn't take the shift rod apart!
...my next OB will -not- be a Honda, I'll get something you -can- get parts for and mechanics are willing to work on.
Tightening the jam nut keeps what happened from happening.
It may have never been reconnected in the first place unless you're sure both forward and reverse worked after servicing. If neither nut was tightened, even with the upper & lower rods disconnected you'd be able to get it in forward as the upper rod would push the lower rod down into position. Once down though you'd be stuck in fwd with no connection between the rods.
Regardless, tightening the jam nut is part of servicing the lower unit and it's bogus to charge you $75 for that, you didn't take the shift rod apart!
...my next OB will -not- be a Honda, I'll get something you -can- get parts for and mechanics are willing to work on.
Last edited by argonaut on Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mike
- Captain
- Posts: 812
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:06 pm
- Location: MS Gulf Coast "Wind Dancer" 98 26X
We had the exact same thing happen to our Honda on our second time out in our newly purchased used 26X (stuck in reverse while trying to pull onto the trailer). It wasn't pretty.
While I am no outboard motor expert, I can't resist trying to ferret out the causes of problems like this, and quickly located it the next day (same thing... shift linkage nut came loose). I reconnected it, and tightened the locking nut... it's been fine ever since.
Regarding Woods: I can't believe they are behaving like this. I'm a graphic artist/prepress guy/web developer/scanner operator/photo retoucher. My time is all I have to sell, and I can't afford to give it away in substantial quantities. But I also recognize that a little unbilled time here and there spent helping clients is not going to sink me, and goes a long way towards building and maintaining goodwill. I could partially understand if it was some major problem that would cost $1000 or so to repair... but to stubbornly INSIST on charging someone $75 for such an insignificant "repair" (especially considering the fact that, as has been exhaustively pointed out, the problem was almost certainly a result of the recent repair job done by this same shop, a point that goes conspicuously unaddressed in the dealer's post in this thread). My guess is that it is a "you didn't buy the motor from us, so we're going to squeeze every penny we can out of you" situation. Either that or they are afraid that by not charging you, they'd be admitting neglect/negligence. Accusing you of loosening the nut yourself is the icing on the cake.
Regarding Honda: this "if a motor fails while it is being used, it is not a defect" thing has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard of. Just recite that line in your head a few times and think about it. There HAS to be more to that side of the story... perhaps the customer service person misread the script text on the computer screen, or was misinformed in some other way. I mean, if I buy a brand new Honda, take it out, and a piston rod goes flying through the case, that's not a defect? My Honda's CDI failed last year, and it's safe to say that it happened while the motor was running... was not not a defect either? (it was covered by a third party warranty purchased by the previous owner)
Anyway, our Honda, aside from the failed CDI (which was an intermittent problem that only occured when the motor was run hard for a few hours) and the linkage coming loose, has been a great motor. It's relatively quiet, fuel efficient, and has been perfectly reliable (again, aside from those 2 issues about 1.5 years ago). However, I'm with argonaut... if/when the time comes to repower, though there's a slight chance I'd stick with Honda, I'll probably look elsewhere.
--Mike
While I am no outboard motor expert, I can't resist trying to ferret out the causes of problems like this, and quickly located it the next day (same thing... shift linkage nut came loose). I reconnected it, and tightened the locking nut... it's been fine ever since.
Regarding Woods: I can't believe they are behaving like this. I'm a graphic artist/prepress guy/web developer/scanner operator/photo retoucher. My time is all I have to sell, and I can't afford to give it away in substantial quantities. But I also recognize that a little unbilled time here and there spent helping clients is not going to sink me, and goes a long way towards building and maintaining goodwill. I could partially understand if it was some major problem that would cost $1000 or so to repair... but to stubbornly INSIST on charging someone $75 for such an insignificant "repair" (especially considering the fact that, as has been exhaustively pointed out, the problem was almost certainly a result of the recent repair job done by this same shop, a point that goes conspicuously unaddressed in the dealer's post in this thread). My guess is that it is a "you didn't buy the motor from us, so we're going to squeeze every penny we can out of you" situation. Either that or they are afraid that by not charging you, they'd be admitting neglect/negligence. Accusing you of loosening the nut yourself is the icing on the cake.
Regarding Honda: this "if a motor fails while it is being used, it is not a defect" thing has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard of. Just recite that line in your head a few times and think about it. There HAS to be more to that side of the story... perhaps the customer service person misread the script text on the computer screen, or was misinformed in some other way. I mean, if I buy a brand new Honda, take it out, and a piston rod goes flying through the case, that's not a defect? My Honda's CDI failed last year, and it's safe to say that it happened while the motor was running... was not not a defect either? (it was covered by a third party warranty purchased by the previous owner)
Anyway, our Honda, aside from the failed CDI (which was an intermittent problem that only occured when the motor was run hard for a few hours) and the linkage coming loose, has been a great motor. It's relatively quiet, fuel efficient, and has been perfectly reliable (again, aside from those 2 issues about 1.5 years ago). However, I'm with argonaut... if/when the time comes to repower, though there's a slight chance I'd stick with Honda, I'll probably look elsewhere.
--Mike