Sailing Upright

[leefrankpierce]

Ok, so I do not know how fast I am going in both conditions.
It is a LOT faster than when I had the honda 50.
Propped and geared for when I am loaded, so top speed un-ballasted is limited to my rpm.
I do not look often, so very possible 20mph is when ballasted.
I can say that un-ballasted I am faster than most ski boats.

[OverEasy]

Hi All!

1st - Hi Herschel: You are an inspiration!
Keep sailing!

2nd - Hi FrankLeePierce: With our Mac26X & 60 hp Suzuki we get to 20-25 mph as measured via GPS on multiple runs on flat lake water without wind or currents with the ballast empty at a WOT and 4600 rpm. (Engine rpm is limited at ~5300 rpm and we are rpm limited by our prop on purpose as we are setup for cruising efficiency).
With full ballast we drop down by about 5-to-7 mph as measured via GPS under identical conditions.
We found that the variation in speed is a function of passenger positioning… when passengers are in the cockpit (aft loading) we are slower than when passengers are in the cabin (forward loading). This change in the fore/aft center of gravity changes the planing angle of the hull…shallower when forward loading.
We carry a lot of stuff () and if we emptied out we could probably add a couple mph to our top speed. Mind you we actually spend most of our time leisurely motoring around at about 7-to-8 mph as measured by GPS.

3rd-Hi Be Free: The batteries are already a ballast item … might as well consider them given the paper exercise here… beats adding 80 more lbs of sand or salt IMO but no harm no foul. We’re Port side heavy by a couple degrees now with the galley/dual-batteries/AC all statically located on that side.
Yes, one would need to make a robust track system and cable or hydraulic system to move any ballast around.
Yes, the limited mass vs the water ballast mass is nearly insignificant at 80 lbs. To get into the hundreds of lbs needed to make a measurable difference would be awkward and bulky…. Unless one takes advantage of the self adjusting nominally bipedal homo sapien cargo carried aboard in various configurations. Even the smaller ones can weigh 60 plus pounds…larger examples can be upwards of 180 plus pounds. Have them arranged on the high side when needed (and evenly distributed when not). If further leveling is needed with limited cargo tie a lanyard to them and have them stand on the gunnels and lean out as far as they can. It’s preferable to strap PFDs to them as it makes it easier to retrieve later should they fall off (not to worry…they’re washable)

Best Regards
Over Easy

[Starscream]

... suggesting that we might deliberately set about trying to capsize the boat ...

I've done that on our 26X. Full mainsail and jib on a super-gusty day to learn the limits. With full sail the boat had a lot of weather-helm. So much so that in the gusts that we thought might knock us down, the boat just rounded up into the wind, despite the rudder inputs. At 45 degrees the rudders are more like elevators than rudders, and there just wasn't enough steering authority to prevent the round-ups. When the boat rounded up, it took maybe three seconds for the boat to turn sharply into the wind and stand back up mostly level. We couldn't prevent the round-ups. It was a big confidence booster in the boat.

[Be Free]

Over Easy,

I have no issue with considering batteries as ballast (see below). My only concern is setting them up as moveable ballast. I'm concerned about the stresses that the cables and posts may experience when they are moved about. Battery cables and battery posts are not really designed with that in mind.

My boat has a slight starboard list due to 242 pounds of batteries under the aft dinette seat. There is another 50 pound start battery under the port "jump seat". If you ever see me and wonder why I prefer to be on a starboard tack in any kind of blow, now you know.

We are in full agreement that (if you need it) "rail meat" is the best moveable ballast. It is almost infinitely adjustable and some will even respond to voice control. The main problem I have with it is that I really prefer the solitude of a solo sail so I'm willing to give up the performance gains that they may provide. I no longer have any desire to race against anyone other than myself (as evidenced by the boat I have chosen).

[Be Free]

... suggesting that we might deliberately set about trying to capsize the boat ...

I've done that on our 26X. Full mainsail and jib on a super-gusty day to learn the limits. With full sail the boat had a lot of weather-helm. So much so that in the gusts that we thought might knock us down, the boat just rounded up into the wind, despite the rudder inputs. At 45 degrees the rudders are more like elevators than rudders, and there just wasn't enough steering authority to prevent the round-ups. When the boat rounded up, it took maybe three seconds for the boat to turn sharply into the wind and stand back up mostly level. We couldn't prevent the round-ups. It was a big confidence booster in the boat.

100% agree. It is much more likely that you will round up than be knocked down. That's a good thing. The combination of the natural tendency for the boat to turn to weather compounded by a significant amount of heel that keeps the one rudder that is still in the water from being effective removes all ability to steer for a few seconds. It's embarrassing but not particularly dangerous.

The time I got knocked down was a very short duration micro-burst that put me on my side and spun the boat around (at least) 360 degrees before it passed. It seemed like it would never end but I'm sure it was well under a minute.

[leefrankpierce]

Per my speeds @120hp.
The weight distro. from front to back under power does seem to be an issue.
Lots more engine/fuel, two people in cockpit, nose is higher than I would like so I may not be on plane as I should be.
It does seem like I am moving a LOT of water for the effort. I do not do it often, usually I am just going in and out of harbor.
I have a cavitation plate on but have not installed wedges to get more down trim on the motor.
Guess I might try the wedges to see if I can force the nose down.

[NiceAft]

Or, have the second person in the cockpit move into the V berth. You should get on plane shortly, then the crew member can rejoin you

[Stickinthemud57]

The tendency of the boat to round into the wind makes me wonder what other approach might be more successful in knocking the boat over. If one can call that "success" anyway.

The three times I can remember capsizing, I was not sailing to windward. Jibing (intentional and otherwise) and overpowering on a beam reach have been the danger zones in my experience.

[leefrankpierce]

Or, have the second person in the cockpit move into the V berth. You should get on plane shortly, then the crew member can rejoin you

I suppose if I really had a storm come up I might try some things, but truthfully I have tried to dump ballast only 1 time after going into the slip.
Have no idea if I got it all.
When I put it on, it was for the power trim and ideas of my son taking to tubing and stuff, but he is now at college, so 99% of the time a 9hp would do the same job.
Idle out, Idle in, with the occasional loaded up to speed just to let it run.

[Dougiestyle]

Questions?
1. Round up - Designed to heel over and turn into the wind without the mast touching the water?
2. Knockdown - The boats mast touches the water and pops back up?
3. Capsize - The boat mast stays in the water?

This is what I believe are the definitions of these?

Round ups happen . Who has had this happen? I have. Not fun but tolerable. I went from about 10 degree heel to about 45 real quick. WEEHAA

Knockdown - Not me

Capsize - no thanks

[leefrankpierce]

I think the weather helm is affected by the mast angle.
In the beginning I neglected to say I have less rake to my mast.
Enough that my backstay is tight with the buckle open, my side stays are at max length.
When I have rounded up, the boat has turned away from the wind, it is like the downwind rudder is no longer in the water.
I recover by first dumping the jib, (un-cleating and letting it go) I have knots in the end of my sheets so I do not totally lose them.
This turns the jib into a big kite, but at least I am going in 1 direction with no lean. I then pull the boom all the way in to keep it from hitting anyone and minimize the main sail area from the rear, then I get control of my jib again pulling it into a reasonable angle for me to regain steering and start turning back into the wind. Then I decide what to do with my main.
It has never knocked down, only rounded up, but seemingly opposite to what happens to others.

[NiceAft]

Leefrank, if I may call you that, the way you can tell if the ballast tank is empty is, while in the captains seat, to look over your shoulder and see if any water is exiting the valve.

[Stickinthemud57]

Questions?
1. Round up - Designed to heel over and turn into the wind without the mast touching the water?
2. Knockdown - The boats mast touches the water and pops back up?
3. Capsize - The boat mast stays in the water?

This is what I believe are the definitions of these?

Round ups happen . Who has had this happen? I have. Not fun but tolerable. I went from about 10 degree heel to about 45 real quick. WEEHAA

Knockdown - Not me

Capsize - no thanks

These sound like workable definitions to me. I don't know if there's any "official" definition.

Round up - I would say "designed such that" rather than "designed to". Probably a distinction without a difference.
Knockdown - In the contexts that I have heard it used, "Being pushed over to the point of loosing control of the boat". I would not consider the mast touching the water to be required for the term to apply.
Capsize - I think you have that right. The boat is laying on its side with the sails in the water. The MacGregors of all stripes are supposed to be self-righting, which is supposed to prevent that most dreaded of sailboat mishaps:

Turning turtle - capsizing and subsequently turning completely upside down such that the keel, centerboard, daggerboard, what-have-you, is sticking upwards and the mast and sails are underwater. Except with smaller boats, this condition typically requires the assistance of a power boat to bring the boat upright.

[Jimmyt]

Rounding up is usually due to the rudder losing its bite, and the weather helm taking over - causing the boat to point to weather. So, you have to heel far enough to get the rudder either out of the water, or at an angle where it is no longer able to offer lateral resistance. The M’s vertical rudders will lose their bite at less of a heel angle than a boat with outward canted rudders.

Rounding up is actually a preferred reaction to excessive heel. This is why a tad of weather helm is desirable.

We’ve wandered a bit from how to sail at minimum heel, but all in good fun.

Capsize and turtle are two words I hope not to use while talking about my boat.