Buyer Beware, INSPECT and CHECK!

barebirken · Post by **barebirken** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:41 am

Hi, I am new to this forum and hopefully a 97X. Heading out tomorrow (Rock Springs,WY. to Hot Springs, SD). Would like to know what are a few of the "for sure things to inspect and check". The owner has pulled the boat and prep it for travel. It has a 50 Nissan 2s. Maybe it should of been left in the water for a test run/sail? I have the option to head to The Anchorage, Lyons, CO. for a 96X with a 50Honda 4s. Both have dual axle trailers, one with electric and the other surge brakes. Thanks Bill

macsailor · Post by **macsailor** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:54 am

I just re-did the brakes on my trailor(surge)and a buddy that helped me said that surge braks are better on a boat trailor than electric because of the water. Tats only hos opinion, but it certainly sounded reasonable. I'd check the sails as well as the general overall look of the boat. If the boat is pretty grungy, it tells you pretty quick how well the boat was cared for.Best of luck.Jim

DLT · Post by **DLT** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:07 am

Assuming all the rigging is there and at least servicable:

The motor has the biggest potential for expensive maintenance and repair. So, be sure to run it. The idea being to see how easy it starts and idles... You can't run up the RPM, unless your get it in the water... But, even running it at idle, with the muffs, will tell you alot about the general health and welfare...

The next item is electrical. Look for corrosion, general neglect, etc...

The rest of the boat, except sails as mentioned, is pretty durable. Just look for cracks, evidence of water intrusion, etc...

richandlori · Post by **richandlori** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:30 am

Welcome Barebirken to the board.

If it were me one of my biggest concerns would be the motor, because it could be the biggest repair cost item, other than general wear and tear. I would definitely want to run the motor in the water at different RPM's. Does the seller want to have the boat packed for travel because he is a nice guy, or is he afraid what would happen if you ran the motor up to 3/4 idle.

Unless you are a mechanic or can get a feel for the motors condition by "laying hands" on it, I wouldn't take the risk.

Just one Bosos opinion.

Rich

DLT · Post by **DLT** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:04 am

Yes, by all means, if you can get the boat back in the water, do so...

Run that engine up well past idle and listen. Put it in gear to see that the linkage all works. hull, go for a short cruise varying the RPM...

It certainly is possible that the owner knows of a engine issue and is trying to avoid your discovery by putting it on the trailer...I'd hope not...but it is possible...

Also ask for mainentence records. But, before you do so, ask questions. Ask him how often he changes the lower unit lube. Does he do it or does he have it professionally done. Then, ask for the records backing that up. Obviously, you don't want to word it that way. But, if he tells you one thing and his records reflect something else, then what else is he not being candid about?

normo · Post by **normo** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:29 am

Another vote for a thorough inspection of the motor. If you don't have a lot of experience with outboards you should consider having a reputable outboard repair shop check it out. Then insist on an in the water trial and run it at all power settings for several minutes. Engine repairs can be very very expensive. In addition, you surely don't want to subject yourself and family to the perils associated with a problematic engine.

Sails are another expensive item if you care at all about sailing. In my opinion the stock sails were made to a cost target and are will not hold their shape for long. If these used boats have replacement sails from a quality sail loft and they are in good shape that could be worth several hundred dollars more than one with the stock Macgregor sails. If in doubt have an experienced friend or a sail loft look at them.

Make sure the electronics work or discount them in your offer.

I know it is impossible but don't rush. There are lots

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:31 am

Absolutely agree with the above. Do Not buy the boat if the owner is unwilling to do a Sea Trial!! The engine and electronics are the most likely to give you hadaches. Be sure to run the engine at high throttle for some time. I have an oddball engine problem where the engine "claims" to over heat above 4000 rpm after about ten minutes. Runs like a champ under that. Go figure.

Theo

jetta01 · Post by **jetta01** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:23 pm

Ditto on all the above comments...

Remember that the motor is what makes Roger's great deal of $19995.00 turn into $33000.00.

Frank C · Post by **Frank C** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:39 pm

Damnable Boat-buying Philosophy That Every Mac Owner Will HATE

FWIW ... here's a completely different purchasing strategy. You'll recognize instantly if Part A may or may not work for you. IMO, the outboard is THE essential component of this boat's utility. Considering the age of your 2 choices, no originally installed outboard will do. I'd ascribe it with zero value.

Part A of this strategy is either to adjust your offering price, or adjust your mental approach so that the motor is worthless. Now you don't even need to start it. Offer to leave it with him, or just assume it's a near-zero trade-in for later. The hull is still worth close to original price ... around $12 to 14,000, and a brand new EFI outboard will vary from $6 to 8,000. Make sure the hull is solid and you'll have THE primo recreational solution for $20,000, or less.

Search this website for the word "carburetor" and you'll get a perspective on the aggravation of docking with a motor that stumbles on gear change, or stalls and then fails to start again. So, the essence of my "used boat" strategy ... the 26X hull doesn't depreciate unless it has been abused. This boat's real value is an effective powersailer implementation, so buy a modern, EFI outboard. (I like Suzuki 4-strokes, others will suggest modern 2-strokes, but it's a simple Ford vs. Chevy choice ... pick your own poison).

Part B - Hull is solid?
- Make sure it isn't leaking much

.... open a bilge hatch and take a whiff. Shine your flashlight into, under and around each opening, all 8 or 10 of them are under cushions. If you don't like the smells, you can insist on launching it to see if it floats.

- Actually, the lower motor bolts, a punctured ballast tank, or an owner-installed opening below the waterline are the only sources of a severe, uncontrollable leak. Walk around the hull looking for any fittings or damage below the waterline - the factory didn't do that.

- But you really MUST float the boat, fill the ballast tank, and check the bilges remain dry - a leaking ballast tank would demand excruciating study!

- Look over the rubrail carefully for deformation or abrasion ... to see if it's ever had a serious collision.

- Check that every stanchion and pulpit are solid to the deck. Mine still are after five years ... I wouldn't want to deal with a hull not so .... keep looking.

- Check the steering very carefully because it is the boat's achilles heel ... the wheel should turn smoothly.

- Do the rudders remain vertical as they raise & lower? Check the rudder brackets for cracks or bending. Either of these steering issues ... rudder brackets or the cable drum are time-consuming (therefore costly) to repair - price adjustments.

- All B-items are either deal-killers or price declines. Corollary - there are few-to-no options that justify increasing the basic value - no matter what the PO installed, it's not where you'd like it, or how you'd like it installed. Maybe a working chartplotter is worth 200 bucks if the charts match your home area.

Part C - check other hull issues:
- All windows and deck fittings are potential rainwater leaks, basically annoyances.
- Ask if he's ever removed any flotation - easy to fix, but a hassle. Also, you want to know where, why and take a look there to see what replaced it.
. Check the deck for sponginess near all owner-installed deck hardware, indicating leaking due to improper installation.
- Walk the deck for sponginess - you can expect some flex in these decks if you're 180+. If I sensed major flex ... I'd say no thanks.
- Ask him raise the mast for you and watch for any strangeness ... is it and each of the spreaders straight? Mount the boom too, raise the sails, have a look. (The mast is a big-ticket item).
- At eight years now ... you can just assume it's a good time to replace shrouds and stays (about $250).

So there ya go ... a 3 part approach. Part C is easy to expand upon, and easy to just ignore. If your buy-bug is really strong, you probably won't suffer too much ... as long as the hull is solid (part B) most issues are repairable.

RandyMoon · Post by **RandyMoon** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:09 pm

I know I am echoing some of the other guys on this post, but the motor is the number one thing to look out for. If the seller is a retentive obsessive person who looks like they have been very religious about maintenance, keeps records, that is a good sign. Otherwise there are a hundred things that neglect will cause to show up at the wrong time.

However, I am wondering about a statement Rich made. "Unless you are a mechanic or can get a feel for the motors condition by "laying hands" on it, I wouldn't take the risk."

"Laying Hands on it?" I knew that things were esoteric in California, but should you burn incense and chant while assessing the condition of a motor?

Jeff S · Post by **Jeff S** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:05 pm

Frank C wrote: Search this website for the word "carburetor" and you'll get a perspective on the aggravation of docking with a motor that stumbles on gear change, or stalls and then fails to start again. So, the essence of my "used boat" strategy ... the 26X hull doesn't depreciate unless it has been abused. This boat's real value is an effective powersailer implementation, so buy a modern, EFI outboard. (I like Suzuki 4-strokes, others will suggest modern 2-strokes, but it's a simple Ford vs. Chevy choice ... pick your own poison).

FWIW- I have a Tohatsu 2 Stroke (same manufacturer of the Nissan 2 stroke) and it has never had a problem other than me letting the old batts die- but then I pull started the motor with no problem. No stumble, no stall, no fail to start in 1 1/2 years on a 5 year old motor. I bet most Tohatsu/Nissan owners will agree with the reliability/durability and ease of maintenance of those engines. The, like all other motors, require routine maintenance and if left for a long period of time without use will likely have a problem with dried fuel in the carbs and fuel lines. Now...I am not saying EFI's aren't better in general, I tend to agree with that overall but I have had EFI motors that were more trouble prone than the Tohatsu I own. The problem with the Tohatsu/Nissan is primarlily the noise level and the fuel consumption. The plus is the weight (165#) for sailing and the mentioned reliability/durablity as well as easy maintenance. I am happy with my motor. If I bought a new one it would be the Tohatsu 90 TLDI.

By far the most expensive thing that I have dealt with since buying my boat last March is the trailer. They aren't as costly as an engine but are still expensive to repair/replace and much more trouble prone than any outboard brand/type on a Mac. They are painted steel and rust. Salt water does quite a number on them unless meticulously cared for. Check for rust- look carefully inside the square tongue- my trailer rusted through in the tongue to the point I had to have it cut out, and replaced by galvanized steel. The stock drum brakes also rust quite badly.

Based on my experience buying a used Mac I would test the engine in the water, check the maintenance as previously mentioned and use NADA Guides to determine a value for the motor. If you do not like the motor- I wouldn't buy the boat, period. Youi won't get much at all for a used motor off the boat, and a new is quite expensive as mentioned. If you want a 4-stroke then buy one, or buy a 2 stroke that has died and is actually worthless. I doubt you will find someone with a solid 2 stroke who is willing to sell you the whole thing assuming the motor is worthless- if so jump on that! Then I would thoroughly check over the trailer. If it is rusting out I would assume you will have to replace for several thousand $$ or repair it for a few thousand and your time.

...YMMV- The boat is great- hope you find one you like.

-Jeff S[/url]

Moe · Post by **Moe** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:12 pm

I'm just curious... did you ask the owner to pull the boat and prep it for travel, and are now having second thoughts about doing that after he's complied with your request?

If you read the experiences of owners here, the Tohatsu/Nissan two-stroke has to be one of the most bullet-proof motors ever mounted on a Mac. I think all I'd need to do is a compression check and run it ear muffs to see if the water pump is in good shape. I know the manuals say only run outboards at idle on the ear muffs, but I wouldn't have a problem putting it in gear and running it up to maybe 2,500 or so rpm for a few seconds to make sure the carbs are clean on the high speed jets. They sure don't seem to clog like the Honda jets.

Others have covered hull inspection. I don't think I'd necessarily have to have a sea trial.

Frank C · Post by **Frank C** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:22 pm

Jeff S wrote: ... I bet most Tohatsu/Nissan owners will agree with the reliability/durability and ease of maintenance of those engines. ... require routine maintenance and if left for a long period of time without use will likely have a problem with dried fuel in the carbs and fuel lines.

... The problem with the Tohatsu/Nissan is primarlily the noise level and the fuel consumption.

... If you do not like the motor- I wouldn't buy the boat, period. Youi won't get much at all for a used motor off the boat, and a new is quite expensive as mentioned.

I doubt you will find someone with a solid 2 stroke who is willing to sell you the whole thing assuming the motor is worthless

Oops ... wait, wait ... wait a minute here ... lemme check my figgers ...... The new 2006 Mac just started shipping on July 1, 2005. Therefore, a 1996 Mac has just turned ten years old - yep, got that much right! Sorry Jeff - not being critical, just realistic. It does not matter how reliable your outboard is, if it's ten years old, it's essentially worthless, on a pretty valuable hull. And if you think you can keep shopping to find a '96 with the "correct" outboard ... that's truly unrealistic:

* So let's start with a (rather generous) $12,000 hull value for a ten year old Mac 26X. Check the hull and deduct for any major abuse.

* Now, let's guesstimate the value of a ten-year-old Force 2-stroke? (Got change for a $100)?

* OR, what's the real value of a ten year old Honda outboard? (one that the seller really doesn't want you to test on the water - be fair now!)?

* OR, suppose you (devil-buyer) get lucky. THIS BOAT has a ten-year-old (very reliable) Tohatsu outboard .... hmmm - let's see, say about $500 (maybe the $750 NADA suggests)? Candidly, you could buy that Tohatsu cheaper than you could install it, so if it's there and it works ...

If your budget dictates, you can settle for a screamin' smokin' 10 year old motor. But you're really missing the essence of the boat. The real value is in the 26X hull, and the resulting recreational package that a new outboard creates. It's like buying a fixer-upper in a really nice neighborhood, then razing it to build a house befitting that locale. That's the beauty of the 26X hull, these days.

I'm first to admit that Mark Prouty's boat does not qualify for this strategy, but his is the only '96 in the USA with a new $8,000 motor and $3,000 of professional installation.

Tol'ya it was damnable boat-buying, but that's the real story on a ten-year old boat. If you're selling you hate it. If you're buying, you need to play the devil's part. It will be the very rare boat where you'll have another buyer standing there to bid against.

Catigale · Post by **Catigale** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:07 am

Welcome Barebirken

If you do a search on the archives you will find there were some important upgrades on the Steering and rudders that were made after 96.

IF the PO doesnt know about this then .....

I like Franks strategy A - to put a number on it, if you go to ebay and look for a 10 year old or older outboard represented to be in good running shape, they go for about $500 for a 50 HP.

I would look at my "willing to spend" budget and back out the cost of the new motor of my choice (INCLUDE INSTALLATION TOO!!)

Have you considered a professional survey? IF you are in the $15000 category does another 300-500 make sense to have peace of mind?

If you are close on price , Offer to split the cost of survey with PO, and buy back his share if you buy.....that will tell you how confident s/he feels about the boat.

Chip Hindes · Post by **Chip Hindes** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:08 am

Frank, I have no idea what the point of your post is, unless it's simply that the relative condition of any ten year old motor should not be a major consideration.

We don't know barebirken's situation or his experience, but anyone who's "new to the forum " and presumably new to the Mac is not proposing to put $12-15K into a 10 year old boat with the idea he will immediately run out and spend another $8-12K on a new motor. It would therefore be nice if the current motor runs at least satisfactorily, so he can get some use and experience out of the boat, maybe put in some other upgrades before he decides to put enough motor on it to run it in the unlimited class powerboat races.

Ideally, you would get to test the boat on the water and see it on the hard, and I would seriously suspect the motives of someone who it seems doesn't want you to test it on the water.

Regarding the Honda versus Tohatsu discussion. My Tohatsu 50D 2S is stinky, and noisy, but it can almost literally run rings around any 50-HP 4S, except past the fuel dock. Tohatsus have a reputation for being bulletproof, and mine, now five years old, has been totally reliable. It has never had more than an annual plug and lower unit oil change, by me, and not once has it needed professional service.

Hondas, on the other hand, are very quiet, get good gas mileage, and seem to have gained a reputation for being very finicky.

MacGregorSailors.com

MacGregorSailors.com

Buyer Beware, INSPECT and CHECK!

Buyer Beware, INSPECT and CHECK!