Got Beat Up going to Catalina

[jetta01]

Did anyone else head out to Catalina Island this past weekend (27th and 28th of August)?

We got beat up pretty bad. Going out wasn't so bad. We were taking waves and swell head on. Molly stayed down below and I sat there getting absolutely soaked. That was actually pretty fun!

Then on the way back it got pretty scary. The swell and the waves were running at different angles. We had the dagger board and rudders down along with a full ballast. The boat was getting twisted and turned all over the place. Then I decided to try more power. That seemed to calm it down a bit. Then came what I think was almost the fatal mistake. I decided to go for more power, so I raised the board and rudders, plus let out the ballast. We went along pretty good for a while. There were a couple of scary surfing moments. Without touching the throttle, we would go from 9 knots up to 17 knots all of a sudden. Add cross swell into that and it made things very interesting. Then we got close to San Pedro and the waves and swell were really bad. I couldn't get the ballast to fill back up because it was too difficult to try and sit there for 5 to 10 minutes. The boat was getting bashed everywhere. I think I ended up with partial ballast, not a good thing!! Anyway, we got hit sideways with a wave so hard that the engine actually came out of the water! Does anyone know what angle of heel that had to be? The RPM's went sky rocketing, so I had to pull back the throttle with one hand while hanging onto the bimini rail with the other to keep from swimming.

Long story short, my hands still hurt 3 days later from hanging on for dear life and constantly fighting the twisting and turning.

Did anyone else experience that this past weekend?

[Robert]

I always keep full ballast if the waves are more than 2 feet even close to shore. On a crossing like Catalina, I would keep the ballast full if crossing alone (with no other boats) even on smooth as glass water, just to be safe. I don't want to have trouble when help is not available.
..
I did a similar trip in 5 foot short unorganized waves against the wind for 40 miles once. Sailing in that was more comfortable than powering, but I decided to power no rudders or centerboard to make the dock before dark. At wide open throttle with my Suzuki DF50 and a 4 blade 11.8" diamerter 9 pitch prop I could make less than 13 MPH. This was the only time I pushed the Mac26X onto the trailer with full ballast, no calm water to empty ballast. I was sore for days after also, mine from holding on while constantly getting hit with what felt like 5 gallon buckets of water every 5 seconds. BTW: I had my life jacket on when the going was rough.

[ALX357]

It is remarkable to me to realize a Mac can withstand some of those heavy seas. Impressed with those sailors who take the chances too.
I'm a "lake" sailor inland, but seems to me anyone taking a Mac26 out on the ocean for even an hour of whatever, is taking chances with a boat not really built heavy enough to constantly take the weather. Several pioneers have crossed oceans or rounded the earth in smaller boats, but they were tougher (boats and sailors) and knew what they were in for, had expected hardships, and of course some damage. Lucky when on calm or managable ocean water, got to expect the heavy stuff. Plan for the worst, and hope for the best.

[Catigale]

Kind of like reefing.

If you think you need to reef, you probably should have reefed a couple hours back.

Thats reefed, not reefer for you hempheads.

If you think you might need ballast, you should ballast NOW.

PFDs are not optional on Catigale, unless at slip or at anchor in calm conditions.

edited for corrections

[Frank C]

Reading all above posts brings some random thoughts. There have been several days on our Bay where conditions deteriorated to the point of causing real nervous concern.

1. I never change the ballast state unless water permits some speed. Never.
2. Agree w/Stephen, PFDs are never optional on salt water. Mandatory.
3. I prefer empty ballast for motoring. Always (assumes 3 or fewer aboard)
Ballast-MT provides a drier ride and boat is faster and much more maneuverable. If I foresee bad conditions, I empty ballast as soon as the chance presents itself.
4. In very rough conditions, I'll always avoid sailing; motoring offers speed & control.

Speed is very important in waves and swell. A comment here several weeks ago by Tom S made me recognize why the boat is so squirrely in following seas .... the rudder stops working when overtaken by reverse flow. It cannot be prevented, but speed helps me choose WHEN the rudder becomes invalid. All of which dictates, for me, motoring at speed in rough conditions.

Edited To Add: Reading Rich's following post, I realized that I was mentally combining divergent scenarios ... my goal in heavy seas would be to approximately match the speed of a following sea, with all boards up. Reverse flow across the rudders means zero control. The same applies when flow reverses past the prop and gearcase. I especially would want board's up in conditions described, to avoid having the boat break a board, or trip over it. I sometimes try a small "skeg" of centerboard, prolly only 3-inches deep, to help maintain some semblence of tracking.

[richandlori]

With all due respect for the opinion of ALX357, I don't agree with the "taking chances" comment about taking a Mac out in heavy seas. How many Mac's are out there 7000? The critics of our boats would have a field day if there was a report of a Mac breaking up due to heavy seas. The only story I am aware of was operator error. The Mac is designed for the minimal standards, but that doesn't mean it is substandard or will break in half in rough seas.

Rick,

Glad to hear that you and Molly made it through the rough seas ok. The last time I took Lori out in those type of conditions it took me 3 months to get her back on the boat! I have slowly been building back up her trust in the captain! I hope you don't get in the same situation. I have found that in conditions like you describe, the only thing to do is keep the ballast empty, boards down, and find a speed that matches the conditios so that the boat gets into a "grove". You may also remember the time when Lori and I headed back to the harbor on the way to Anacapa Island. Of course comming back from Catilina may not give you the option to head back to Catilina.

Good luck

Rich

[cbhinkel]

I went to Avalon from San Pedro several years back and had a similar bad experience on my way back with my old 26X. Starting out, the winds were 10-15knots and things were looking like it was going to be a fun sail with the full genoa and mainsail. When the wind picked up to above 15knots, I reefed the main and had the genoa halfway in. When the wind further increased to well over 25knots, it seemed like holy-hull broke loose and had several near knockdowns. By the time I got all of the sails down, the seas were averaging about 7ft and the boat would wildly gyrate with the swells of my port transom. Ironically, it was a sunny day the whole time.

The four hour trip was comparable to someone spraying me with a garden hose while I was riding one of those mechanical bulls! I was totally beat by the time I past the Long Beach light house.

Apparently, it was in the marine forecast that it was going to get alittle rough, but not to this extent. Even though, I always check this now before heading across the Catalina channel, sunshine or clouds. From this experience, I always cringe when thinking about going back to Catalina.

[jetta01]

There was a group of Macs from San Diego that were out there this past weekend. They were older macs, with a lot lower profile than the X or the M. I talked with one of them back in San Pedro and he had suffered a broken rudder from the twisting. He didn't seem nearly as disturbed as I was though. I am wondering if it was due to him not getting blown around by the wind. He only had to worry about the swells and waves, where I had the wind added into the equation. Sure, he gets hit with wind also, but it can't be nearly as bad. It looked to me like the sides were about half as high as the X and M. I thought a few of those guys might be on this board and I would get some interesting comments back from them. Their group was some sort of christian youth sailing club and many participate in the Macgregor/Venture club in San Diego.

[Divecoz]

They had some extra help on board ???
**Their group was some sort of christian youth sailing club ***
That Would make sense to me

[richandlori]

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I've been out in quite rough open water conditions in our '96 X quite a few times. I've never felt that the boat was not good enough for the conditions. It's built light, but not fragile. These boats can handle exposed coastal cruising conditions. They're not flat water lake boats.

I can also say the the roughest conditions we have ever encounted in 5 years and over 1300 miles of mostly salt water cruising have not been in any of the straits, current passes, or sounds we have traversed, but on our local freshwater Lake Washington. On the way home from one trip we ducked under the 520 bridge headed south east across the lake and took a royal pounding. It was all I could do to get the boat turned around and head back north of the bridge to cross the lake in wind shadow of the floating bridge. We had come out of the Montlake Cut right behind a police boat and I noticed that when we went south under the bridge they changed course and stood by to see if we would need help in the extremely rough conditions.

[ALX357]

[quote="RichandLori"]With all due respect for the opinion of ALX357, I don't agree with the "taking chances" comment about taking a Mac out in heavy seas. How many Mac's are out there 7000? The critics of our boats would have a field day if there was a report of a Mac breaking up due to heavy seas. The only story I am aware of was operator error. The Mac is designed for the minimal standards, but that doesn't mean it is substandard or will break in half in rough seas.
Rick,

and "These boats can handle exposed coastal cruising conditions. They're not flat water lake boats. "
Duane,

Although my comment was more aimed at the sailors expectations concerning physical hardships, .... Open ocean in a Mac is going to be tough for the crew, on most any small boat, especially a light-weight, flat bottom, movable finned, outboard motored, high windaged boat designed primarily around the basis of trailerability.
'Love my Mac and I like that my boat is stronger than it looks, and is able to take heavy seas without breaking up. However i don't think it is at home in the open ocean, 20 miles out to sea, as evidenced by the difficulties described in this thread. Would not want my boat subjected to that kind of wear more than occasionally.
A Volkswagen type 113 (Bug) was a tough, unique and well-made car, with pretty good ground clearance, and often adapted into a Dune Buggy, but you would not fare as well on off-road, rocky, cross-country tracks in the Bug as you would in a Rover, Hummer, or Jeep.

[BK]

Jetta, you mentioned that the swell and waves were coming in from different angles. This is called a confused sea. We tried to go to Catalina in June and I did not check the swell direction that is posted in the local paper, the Register. The waves were coming in both from the south and north. I posted this experience and said you have never experienced anything rough until you have been in a confused sea. After a few miles of this misery we turned around. From now on I will check swell direction.

[Catigale]

Second that BK

I hit the Cape Cod Canal a couple weeks ago with confused sea with all the wake activity.

Im sure the boat will stay together, but the crew will not last long, particularly if they are the family.

My worst condition in my logbook was on an Ericson 32 6-8 feet peaking at 10. Boat was fine, crew was shot after about 2 hours. We made 20 miles that day mostly under power and considered ourselves lucky

[Theo]

Hi Guys,

Here are a couple of sites to check local conditions in the Catalina and Channel Island Channels. Both are surf oriented sites but have excellent information. Note that there is often a swell from more than one direction. Surfers refer to this as a mixed swell and can be good or bad for surf depending on phase. In phase will create larger combined waves, out of phase will create choppy confused conditions like BK describes. Toss into the equation that prevailing local winds will often be from a different direction than swell that was generated thousands of miles away.

http://www.wetsand.com/

http://home.kcbx.net/~tsulaiti/surfreport/

Theo[/url]