I am about 20 minutes southeast of Parker. Haven't heard yet if they will let us put our toys in it yet.
I agree with your other comments. Would like to see a little added strength to the hull too. Its like anything else, if you know what you and the boat are capable of, there should be no problem.
Funny story. I bought a Venture 17 (my first Mac). Took it out a couple of times and had a lot of fun. The third or fourth time out I started to hear this horrendous thunking noise coming from below and the boat pretty much lost all its drive. Lowered the sails, and kicked on the little British Seagull it came with and headed home as fast as I could. Got the boat to the ramp and couldn't beleive what I saw. The boats back then had a swing keel. It was attached by a bolt drilled into the keel and raised and lowered with a little winch in the cockpit. Well they drilled the hole too close to the edge of the keel and instead of re-drilling or replacing it, they simply filled the whole thing in with resin. What happened was the resin finally broke away and the keel was just dangling around like a pendulum.
Lets not forget the Odin, previously the Mast 28. What would be telling is to see the sales numbers in the US for this model. Once the new boat is produced marketing is everything. I would have never learned of the Odins existance if not for Heath's site.
I think I'd be willing to give up motoring speed for better sailing performance. You said it would be a pretty fast boat for a trailer sailer. How confident are you of this? I still worry about the trailering weight. I'm sure a combination of fixed and water ballast was considered but perhaps you might want to revisit the issue for trailerability.
Last edited by baldbaby2000 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To everyone who has made comments about a bigger Mac (FRANK C, Robert, DLT, Billy, Piratecliff),
I have the Aussie built Mach28- the 8th. It is a very close clone of the 26x in interior terms, but with a rig somewhere in-between the x/m/Mast28. Foam/glass, so hull weight is about 1300kgs (2860 lbs). 90hp outboard is the standard recommendation- I have the ETEC 90.
With regard to accommodation I can't fault it- huge bunks forward and under the cockpit, full head/shower, with standing headroom (I'm 182 cm-6ft), large dinette. The cockpit seats are comfortable bunks on steamy tropical nights (I'm in Brisbane). Stern shower for rinsing after a swim. Storage is great. The fridge goes for a week with the 3 by 100 amp hour batteries.
Performance with motor is great- that's why I bought it. When lightly loaded at WOT (5500rpm) she recorded 19.1 knots on the GPS (22mph). At 4,500rpm (cruising) the gps recorded about 17 knots. When heavily loaded at WOT she sits on about 16-17 knots and about 14 knots cruising. Even with water ballast plus load for 2 weeks cruising it planes at 13 plus knots (15mph) at cruising throttle.
Fuel consumption is about 1.4 litres per nautical mile.
Sailing is a bit disappointing- but I've come from multihulls and chose it for motoring/ acommodation reasons. 90 degrees to windward is about the best and she is overtaken by most of the fleet of similar size. Off the breeze is good by mono standards. As a comparison she does no more than 5 knots to windward in 15 knots of breeze and a bit better off the breeze- in similar conditions my Farrier F31 trimaran did about 10 knots to windward at 80 between tacks to windward, about 15-16 knots beam reaching and only 12 knots running square without the spinnaker. She is a bit tender.
Trailing seems quite easy- better than the F31. All up weight is about 2,300 kgs (6160 lbs). On and off the trailer is no problem. I tow with a Merc ML270.
I compared it side by side with a Mac26m and my wife chose the accommodation advantages.
I don't believe it will be exported to the US, but the information might be useful.
Compare these stats against any monohull cruiser either in or out of production. The ratios are design standards and everyboat will have them. They are indicative of how the boat will sail in various scenarios.
Robert & Peter:
Thanks for the info on the Mast and the Mach. I have personally seen the Mast and pictures of the Mach. Both of these boats are essentially beefed up versions of the Mac and retain the powersailing aspect of the design.
Peter HK wrote:I have the Aussie built Mach28- the 8th. It is a very close clone of the 26x in interior terms, but with a rig somewhere in-between the x/m/Mast28. Foam/glass, so hull weight is about 1300kgs (2860 lbs). 90hp outboard is the standard recommendation- I have the ETEC 90. - Peter HK
Peter,
Excellent report - thanks very, very much!
If you don't mind, what is the Mach28's Down-Under selling price w/90 hp?
If I was ready to spend $75k I'd look toward the Telstar 28 in order to achieve both sail & powering speed. In contrast, we've been speaking of $50,000 and I'm pretty much satisfied with the $35k aggregate that I've invested in my 26X w/ Suzuki-60. It's not generally practical to go 15 knots on open waters, but I like being able to get 12 knots in relative comfort & quietude. IMO, that's the real advantage & convenience of the extra investment in modern horsepower.
I have been involved in building both production boats & aircraft (experimental) in both glass and carbon, as well as working on carbon spars and laminate sails.
Some points to note: Part of the reason that carbon spars are so expensive is that in the sailing industry carbon is exclusively reserved for racing, and super yachts. To this point nobody has really needed to consider designing 'crusing' carbon sticks for small boats. Although the materials are expensive, so is the workforce necessary to make them. There are currently two projects underway that are examining 'hybred' carbon sticks that employ mass production techniques in 'tier two' developing countries and they are seriously looking at this issue. My guess is that a 'competitive' mast for this market is about 2-3 years off max. As for cost/benefit issues related to production costs and materials application, this also has been examined closely., but those who have done their homework are rather closed mouthed about the subject for competition related reasons. MM
Thanks for the comments- you ask the price here for the Mach28.
The base cost when I bought it about a year ago was A$84,990 plus A$11,500 for the 90ETEC. At current exchange rates (74 US cents= A$1.00 ) that's about US$71,000. I spent about another A$10,000 on options- sounder/radio/autopilot/bimini/boom tent etc.).
Taxes here are probably significantly higher as a Mac26m costs about A$60-70 thousand from memory.
Ready to go, your's is about US$ 75k to 80k, and it seems that the Mac 26M would be only $10k less ... I wonder how much of that Macgregor cost is import fees.
Wow ... it's surely a much less expensive sport over here!
I'm sure our tax/import fees etc are higher- we pay GST plus import duties on the mac26, but I suspect the mass production benefits of the Mac 26 is a significant part of the remarkably low price of the Mac26 in the US.
Remember mine is only the 8th- I think they are up to the mid 20's. It is also better built- foam /glass, vinylester outer layers, lighter. I'm sure if they could produce a lot of them, and sell them, in our relatively small market, the price would fall dramatically.
Fortunately/Unfortunately (depending on your point of view) we still have tariffs etc to allow our smaller market to compete with mass production.
I am follwoing this discussion very closely, as I am considering importing 2nd hand MacGregor.
This is the costs I have been quoted for shipping, if I can get it in a 40' container, which I believe I can.
Rate Proposal
To: Phil DATE: 15 February 2006
Origin Commodity Requirement Service Transit Time Destination
Port,
Los Angeles Boats in 40 containers Transhipment Weekly Sailings 45-60 days Melbourne
CCY
Export Docs USD 100.00
US Terminal Handling Charge USD Included
Oceanfreight USD 2900.00 per container
Bunker Adjustment Factor Included
Local Charges
Shipping Line Doc Fees AUD 50.00
Australian Port Charges AUD 495.00
Sea-Cargo Automation AUD 25.00
Delivery Order Fee AUD 35.00
Container Cartage & Unpack AUD 650.00
Customs Clearance AUD 150.00
Extra Lines AUD 25.00 per line
Quarantine Fees AUD At Cost
Steam Clean / Fumigation AUD At Cost If Required
Duty / GST At cost as charged by Australian Customs
Duty is 5% IF US content of boat is less than 50%. If over 50%, then duty free under Free Trade Agreement
Goods and Services Tax is 10% on all items.
If you go to Boatpoint.com.au and punch in Single hulled sailboats, 26' , and MacGregor, you will see what the 2nd Hand ones are selling for here.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I may be better off importing one from the USA. (I would appreciate any comment, positive or negative).
BUT, your MacGregor trailers do not meet our construction standards so there is a cost there. I have been quoted for a new trailer $4,500 - $7,000 (Because there is so little weight in a Mac),
but they believe they can bring the MacGregor trailer up to standard at less $, but need to see it in person first.
I believe the Mac primarily appeals to new sailors. Many of them are not sure if they want a power boat or a sailboat. The Mac promises to provide experience with both and it doesn't cost too much--at least relative to other alternatives. I know this is exactly where we were when we bought our 26X four years ago. After getting some experience it seems that one of about three things happens:
1. The owner really likes sailing and moves up to a medium sized keelboat. I saw at least two owners do this last year. The move-up boat of choice seems to be the Hunter 33 in our area. Might be the right boat or it might be that the dealer is just down the water from the Mac dealer.
2. The owner decides that boating is OK, but other things are more important and they sell the Mac and get out of sailing altogether. (Moe)
3. The owner decides the Mac is right-on and after a jillion mods they keep the boat for a long period of time. These folks are not seriously looking for a move-up boat, especially one that is only incrementally different from the one they have. (Duane Dunn)
Yes, of course, there are other outcomes but these are the ones I have observed. The point to this is that the market for Mac owners to move to another boat is limited to option 1. above. This means that these owners will be looking for all the things they really liked in the Mac minus the things they didn't like. This means:
1. More space
2. More "big boat" conveniences like stoves, ovens, heads with showers, more luxurious surfaces--like real wood etc.
3. Better sailing characteristics. Boat should be a little stiffer than the M and sail a little faster but doesn't have to be a racer. Boat must handle short handed and single handed, easily and safely.
4. Outstanding value--Clever engineering and construction methods have to keep the price low relative to performance.
Now to those folks who are looking for their first boat. Your 28 ft boat would have to have more than the Mac but not cost more. Remember how the first Japanese cars broke into the market? How about the current crop of Korean cars? I also believe that "more than the Mac" may be different to a prospective new buyer than to a seasoned sailor. For example the right configuration of galley will sell to a new sailor faster than the way the lines are led or whether it will fly a spinnaker.
It's tough for me to agree on your move-up scenario from the Mac to a Hunter 33. You are going from a $20,000.00 boat to one that costs in excess of $100,000.00. You also now have the expense of a slip or mooring to add into the equation. I just can't see the vast majority of people out there having the financial ability to swing these kind of numbers.
Again, the Kiwi design is probably not going to sway many from the powersailng aspect of the Mac. But for those that purchased it primarily for sailing will take a hard look at the Kiwi design. The boat will sail much better, have quality construction (fiberglass with foam core) and the cabin will be much larger. Remember, the Kiwi design is over 2 feet longer and 2.5 wider. It makes a huge difference inside and out.
As far as price. The boat will have very little in terms of options. I have seen on this site where many owners (including myself) have well over $30,000.00 invested in their boat. The hope is to have the Kiwi boat come in somewhere between $35 to $40 max. and it will be loaded.
The question that the Kiwis have is whether there is sufficient market for the boat to sell 100 to 120 per year. Consider the following:
Now consider that MacGregor can only build 600 boats per year due to state air quality limits. Also consider that the 2006 model year is 100% allocated/ordered.
I would have to think this boat would have a niche in the marketplace.
I appreciate everyones comments to date. There is no perfect boat out there. I am not trying to sell anyone on the boat, just trying to assist a friend who is attempting to place a product in the market. Mac owners are a diverse crowd and I think there are several reasons why someone purchases one. Powersailing, 1st time buyers and simply price are probably the top three.
