Spinnaker Usage
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Jack O'Brien
- Captain
- Posts: 564
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:28 pm
- Location: West Palm Beach, Florida, 2000X, Gostosa III
Spinnaker Usage
For an asymetric spinnaker, what would be the minimum angle of actual, not relative, wind to use it in? When I say angle I'm figuring the bow as zero and the stern as 180 degrees.
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Timm Miller
- First Officer
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:15 pm
Angle
I have a custom built Asymmetrical and I can sail as close as 45 degrees and on a downwind run about 160.......asymetricals are pretty much a reaching sail.....close reach to a broad reach.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
- Contact:
The May issue of "Cruising World" has an excellent article on asymetrical spinnakers. They have great step by step photo's on setting and dousing the sail, jibing, and even how to deal with a wrapped spinnaker.
What I did find interesting is they discuss both the inside and the outside jibe, but neither of these are through the fore triangle like a genoa.
The outside jibe is the racing version in which the clew of the sail passes outside and ahead of the luff of the spinnaker. This is the simplest method, but you have to watch that you don't run over the long slack sheets during the jibe.
On the inside jibe, which they recommend for cruising, the clew of the sail passes behind the luff of the sail but still in front of the headstay. This lets you keep the sheets tighter so you don't end up with them under the boat, but the spinnaker is much more prone to wrap in this method.
Either way they say you'll want plenty of sea room.
In their pictures the tack pendant is run through a block attached to the bow pulpit well away from the furling drum and as far forward as possible.
Looking at the pictures you can see why jibing the sail through the fore triangle is not a recommended method. They recommend the sail be set with the tack flying 2 feet above the pulpit. This puts the tack well ahead of the headstay and the big arching luff flys far in front of the headstay. To drag all this back and through the foretriangle would be difficult and hard on the sail.
What I did find interesting is they discuss both the inside and the outside jibe, but neither of these are through the fore triangle like a genoa.
The outside jibe is the racing version in which the clew of the sail passes outside and ahead of the luff of the spinnaker. This is the simplest method, but you have to watch that you don't run over the long slack sheets during the jibe.
On the inside jibe, which they recommend for cruising, the clew of the sail passes behind the luff of the sail but still in front of the headstay. This lets you keep the sheets tighter so you don't end up with them under the boat, but the spinnaker is much more prone to wrap in this method.
Either way they say you'll want plenty of sea room.
In their pictures the tack pendant is run through a block attached to the bow pulpit well away from the furling drum and as far forward as possible.
Looking at the pictures you can see why jibing the sail through the fore triangle is not a recommended method. They recommend the sail be set with the tack flying 2 feet above the pulpit. This puts the tack well ahead of the headstay and the big arching luff flys far in front of the headstay. To drag all this back and through the foretriangle would be difficult and hard on the sail.
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Scott
- Admiral
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 12:46 pm
- Sailboat: Venture 25
- Location: 1978 Catalina 22 with all the Racing Goodies!! 4 horse fire breathing monster on the transom
kerpow
We sail with our assymetrical near every weekend. You can use it for up wind as close as 40-45 deg but I wouldnt suggest it. About 50 or 60 is as close to the eye as we use it. On our website we have pics in the photo section re: spinnaker trimming. (or at least how I do it) You can also use it straight down wind wing on wing (pics on site again) The point of an assymetrical spinnaker is however to sail on a tack. The thought being that you will gain enough speed through lift gybing downwind to offset what you lose by covering extra ground as compared to being pushed straight downwind. The assymtrical is funnest at around 90 to 100 true. As the article in cruising world says, apparent wind will experience drramtic changes with small differences in speed. We came across the wind saturday at around 90 to 100 true and in 20-30 mph winds we hit 8.7 knots with a reefed main and a-sail.
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Scott
- Admiral
- Posts: 1654
- Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 12:46 pm
- Sailboat: Venture 25
- Location: 1978 Catalina 22 with all the Racing Goodies!! 4 horse fire breathing monster on the transom
Ooops
Sorry, forgot. The article in Cruising world also states that required equipment for an a-sail is a block for halyard mounted above the forestay. Mac x's dont have this. I know many have added this mod but we do inside tack/gybe ours like a genoa and have tried both ways. Ill stick with inside.
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Schock Therapy
- Deckhand
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46 pm
How high you can point with a chute really depends on the cut of the sail. Some asyms are cut very flat for tighter reaching and higher speeds, others are cut fuller to allow you to sail deeper. I suspect most cruising asymetrics are a bit on the full side. Most of the time your limiting factor will be whether you can carry the sail without heeling excessively. If you can't carry it without heeling beyond 15 or 20 degrees, you might as well change to a genoa. Your boats are flat bottomed, so they will need to be kept flat to be fast.
I'm not sure why they would say a block is "required" at the mast exit. As long as the halyard does not chaffe when pulled sideways, it should be fine. Even if it is required, it is very easy to install one.
An asymetric spinnaker is definitely on my wish list. My mastead symetrical spinnakers are just to big for my wife and I to handle easily. It sure would be nice to pop a small asymetric with a snuffer when we go cruising.
I'm not sure why they would say a block is "required" at the mast exit. As long as the halyard does not chaffe when pulled sideways, it should be fine. Even if it is required, it is very easy to install one.
An asymetric spinnaker is definitely on my wish list. My mastead symetrical spinnakers are just to big for my wife and I to handle easily. It sure would be nice to pop a small asymetric with a snuffer when we go cruising.
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Frank C
Coincidentally, the latest "Sailing" magazine arrived yesterday with an excellent article, Techinques for flying the Asym. It explains Schock's concepts in great depth. "Sail" magazine also arrived yesterday (best case, these arrive on a Friday, otherwise I burn an entire workdaySchock Therapy wrote:How high you can point with a chute really depends on the cut of the sail. Some asyms are cut very flat for tighter reaching and higher speeds, others are cut fuller to allow you to sail deeper. I suspect most cruising asymetrics are a bit on the full side. . .
). This one has an extremely interesting article, explaining "Modern Rigs." It contrasts masthead versus fractional rigs, explaining that the fractional rig was designed to improve rig adjustability for shaping the mainsail. The main is the primary drive sail for fractionals, reducing size of the headsail for ease and speed of handling, with jibs and smaller Gennys.
The articles this month are good and Sail gives a good idea of what we string junkies love about our fractional bendy rigs. Just think while most people use 3-5 controls, we get 10.
It's overwhelming at first but then you get spoiled. Then you feel kind of lost when you get on a boat look up and see that you could do with deepening the draft and all you have is the outhaul. Ack!
Would any of you like to come out for a quick run around Port Orchard during your Port Orchard Cruise In? We could throw up the main and actually goof around with all the controls. Since I typically drive I rarely get to play with the main. I would love an excuse to get the boat out that weekend.
It's overwhelming at first but then you get spoiled. Then you feel kind of lost when you get on a boat look up and see that you could do with deepening the draft and all you have is the outhaul. Ack!
Would any of you like to come out for a quick run around Port Orchard during your Port Orchard Cruise In? We could throw up the main and actually goof around with all the controls. Since I typically drive I rarely get to play with the main. I would love an excuse to get the boat out that weekend.
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Frank C
Most of us with race rigs that are fractional have the usual suspects
Halyard
Vang
Outhaul
Backstay
Traveller
Leech cord
Mainsheet
Then of course you add in the cunningham, checkstays, and running backstays.
The cunningham is used to bring draft forward
Checkstays control the middle portion of the sail by pulling the mast straight. Most of us with bendy rigs have huge amounts of pre-bend in the mast. When we pull on the checkstays we straighten the mast out and that deepends the draft for that area.
Running Backstays are used for jib and forestay control, but do play a fair part in main control as well by controling the forward/aft movement of the mast.
Batten Tension. We can make our battens turn our sail into a soupbowl if we so wanted.
On footed sails we have a cord for tension on that as well.
For downwind we also have baby stays
Halyard
Vang
Outhaul
Backstay
Traveller
Leech cord
Mainsheet
Then of course you add in the cunningham, checkstays, and running backstays.
The cunningham is used to bring draft forward
Checkstays control the middle portion of the sail by pulling the mast straight. Most of us with bendy rigs have huge amounts of pre-bend in the mast. When we pull on the checkstays we straighten the mast out and that deepends the draft for that area.
Running Backstays are used for jib and forestay control, but do play a fair part in main control as well by controling the forward/aft movement of the mast.
Batten Tension. We can make our battens turn our sail into a soupbowl if we so wanted.
On footed sails we have a cord for tension on that as well.
For downwind we also have baby stays
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Schock Therapy
- Deckhand
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46 pm
That sounds like fun! Sounds like a nice tuneable mast. The last big frac I raced on was an old IOR one-tonner. Damn that was alot of work! My Hotfoot 20 had a nice bendy mast with aft swept spreaders. (kinda like the mac!) I had a huge-roach, full-batten mainsail on a 1 foot overlength boom. Standard mainsail is 165sq ft, this was 216. Of course the overlength boom meant no permanent backstay. The runners proved to be very punnishing if mishandled!
I ended up going back to the stock mainsail, and simple permanent backstay led to both sides helm position. Simplicity is nice sometimes! And it gave us more time to tame the masthead hoist symetric spinnaker on a 2foot overlength pole, that I bought off a San Juan 24. That boat cried out for a bowsprit and asymetric, unfortunately it never happened.
I now have an old high aspect IOR masthead rig. It's a pretty sturdy tree of a mast, but it is tapered, and is bendable using the hydraulic backstay and the adjustable babystay. Of course with the tiny mainsails of the era, the benifits arent as great as frac.
Ah but the simplicity of just unfurling the #2 when out for a family sail with our 2 year old! Who needs a mainsail? The old girl powers up just fine, and points well without!
I ended up going back to the stock mainsail, and simple permanent backstay led to both sides helm position. Simplicity is nice sometimes! And it gave us more time to tame the masthead hoist symetric spinnaker on a 2foot overlength pole, that I bought off a San Juan 24. That boat cried out for a bowsprit and asymetric, unfortunately it never happened.
I now have an old high aspect IOR masthead rig. It's a pretty sturdy tree of a mast, but it is tapered, and is bendable using the hydraulic backstay and the adjustable babystay. Of course with the tiny mainsails of the era, the benifits arent as great as frac.
Ah but the simplicity of just unfurling the #2 when out for a family sail with our 2 year old! Who needs a mainsail? The old girl powers up just fine, and points well without!
The next mod is masthead chute and oversized pole. Schock any time you want to come down for a weekend to come sailing with us, you are more than welcome to stay in our guest room or on the boat. It's a first gen IMS racer so that means it has a nice interior.
The next sail will be an asym so we can double hand it. I will have Harry Pattison from E/P make it up. Great spinnakers great prices, all made in the US. There is no way we can run a standard sym on this boat double-hand.
The next sail will be an asym so we can double hand it. I will have Harry Pattison from E/P make it up. Great spinnakers great prices, all made in the US. There is no way we can run a standard sym on this boat double-hand.
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Schock Therapy
- Deckhand
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46 pm
I am mommy to the Tripp47 Navitae Juvenis. Built 1993, one of 10 Tripp47's built. 22,000 lbs, 9'4" draft, and made for offshore racing. PHRF handicap of 9 with a fractional spinnaker. Below is a shot that Borrowed Light Images took of us (see http://borrowedlightimages.com for great sailing shots at very good prices)
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Schock Therapy
- Deckhand
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46 pm