GPS / Sounder Deal

[Tahoe Jack]

Frank.....I tend to agree with you on the big picture re Garmin. However, Lowrance still sells their better street map (Map Create) that requires their proprietary MMC reader...and limits copies to three. My SeaChamp also accepts the Navionics charts...however, they too have a proprietary SD reader. The charts that come with the Sea Champ are so-so. OK for general use but not current re streets and little detail on waters. I managed at Lake Powell but couldn't have done it without better paper chart supplements. Hoping market forces will clean up this aspect. Seems like $100-200 for a chart or chip should be universal.
Bottom line, still happy with the Eagle Sea Champ.....and buying chips!
Dusting off the skis and snowshoes.....got the Mac covered. Jack

[kmclemore]

Yeah, Frank, I also tend to agree. I use a Standard Horizon GPS, mostly because the inland map I wanted was only available on a C-Map chip... but also because it would network with other devices once I had the $$ to move in that direction. All the same, like Jack, I'm stuck buyin' chips!

[Moe]

First, bad analogy to use with me. Apple OS-X and Sun Solaris are open source, Windows isn't. If you want a *nix box that just works, Apple and Sun can provide that because they don't try to support every piece of hardware available, the biggest problem with Linux.

Don't even get me started on Microsoft, who's Play4Sure was just a honey pot to get competitors mired in so Microsoft could try to eliminate them with the new "Zune" and "Zune Store." Microsoft bastardizes standards and tries to make them incompatible with anything except Windoze and Internet Exploiter. When others (OpenOffice.org, etc) catch up, Microsoft changes formats, ie Word 2007. As Mac market share has been increasing (but still in single digits), Microsoft has dropped support for Internet Explorer/Mac, Windows Media Player/Mac, hasn't updated Remote Desktop/Mac, are now taking VB scripting out of Office/Mac, and restricted the more affordable "Home" versions of Vista from being used under virtualization.

I and my staff run 20 2003 servers supporting over 2,000 users on XP and now Vista Enterprise, but we also support Macs, Suns, and Linux boxes, and get to see how far Microsoft goes to try to shut them out. Although we're an enterprise license site and must run Windows for a lot of applications, I strongly encourage others to consider Macs and Linux. They're what I use, and only dual-boot Windows on either as a last resort. Nothing would please me more than for the courts to get Microsoft out of Internet, productivity, and media applications, ordering them to release the code to the open source community.

So yes, I can appreciate your early adoption of NMEA 2000. The big problem is, only BRP and Lowrance are using it now and in the near future, at least at the small boat level. Yamaha, Mercury, Suzuki, and Tohatsu don't. No one I'm aware of does for sailing instruments or small autopilots. Garmin, Furuno, Raymarine, and JRC don't for radar. Icom, Standard Horizon, Uniden, and even Lowrance themselves don't for VHF. None of the new GMDSS Class D VHF transceivers use it.

Your comparison of Lowrance to MacGregor is shared by many others. And I found your source of "black box" comes right off the Lowrance website. Regarding your FUD of having to replace NMEA 0183 equipment one day when NMEA 2000 does become widely used, no, you don't have to. If you want, you can just use a translator hub, as you can to interface NMEA 2000 to the current world of NMEA 0183.

BTW, Apple and Sun long ago began migrating to common hardware, most recently for Apple, Intel processors, and for Sun, AMD. You'd better hope NMEA 2000 doesn't become like PCs, where every time you buy a new computer, the processor socket, the video and memory slots, and hard drive interface, have changed to some new and better "standard" so your old stuff doesn't work with it.

--
Moe

[Frank C]

I'm no fanboy for Bill Gates, and surely won't cite Windoze as an example of open systems. But IBM used Gates to define, ultimately to disseminate a single open hardware standard. Nobody (I think) will ever dispute the worldwide societal and cultural impact that the PC hardware standard has created, and the very low costs that ensued. That would never have otherwise happened. But in this case we're speaking only of an interface and network standard, much less complex than defining the PC. There are myriad reasons that ethernet doesn't do that same job .... NMEA2k requires half the power and it's serverless ... very important, it's said, on a boat.

Will other Mfgs adopt it? Don't know, but odds are pretty good since the NMEA2000 standard was developed & Beta tested by the likes of Furuno USA, JRC, Litton Marine, Navionics, Northstar, Raymarine, Simrad, Teleflex, and Trimble.

Not sure about your boat, Moe, but changing hardware isn't my problem. Changing the wiring between the pieces - each upgrade requiring replacement of a wire - that's my problem. I would hope that this cable can become the permanent, single power & data backbone among displays and transducers. Incidently, the first example of simplification ... my GPS display is at the cabin bulkhead. This originally meant pulling three cables from the transom (vicinity), one each for depth, speed and antenna.

By contrast, my new Lowrance now requires that single, standardized cable from transom to cabin. The 3 xducers are just taps off that main cable ... Brilliant, even if it was "designed by committee."

You're right though, in the PC world we've seen serial, parallel, PCMCIA and CardBus ports all replaced by USB and/or several flavors of wireless. Hopefully USB has settled-in as the PC standard, maybe NMEA2k for boaters. And in the meantime, it appears to me that Lowrance still offers more bank per buck than any other provider of small boat electronics ... PLUS, Lowrance is simplifying their OWN connectivity, regardless of other Mfgs.
Watchword remains, Caveat Emptor!

... The difference is a choice between expensive, proprietary networks (brands you've linked) versus an industry-standard open interface network. Proprietary schemes limit users' ability to interconnect equipment from different manufacturers, a marketing ploy at which Garmin excels. NMEA2000 defines a multi-master, multi-talker, multi-listener single network trunk from bow to stern, an ultra-low-power data & cable scheme ... how wonderfully appropriate to the Macgregor mantra, doesn't it seem??

[Frank C]

... Regarding your FUD of having to replace NMEA 0183 equipment one day when NMEA 2000 does become widely used, no, you don't have to. If you want, you can just use a translator hub, as you can to interface NMEA 2000 to the current world of NMEA 0183. . .

Hmmm - wonder what Chip might say about ease of interconnecting with NMEA(old) ...
and especially, about interconnecting Garmin!

... BTW, Apple and Sun long ago began migrating to common hardware, most recently for Apple, Intel processors, and for Sun, AMD.

Right, they've both jumped onto that bandwagon quite voluntarily & quite willingly, eh?
Apple/Intel, after how many years? And BTW, I lost count;
how many Mfgs are competing to sell me Sun/Apple hardware?


Pardon the sarcasm. It's apparent, at least, that we both believe open standards move mountains on behalf of consumers, in fact, to the long-term productivity and betterment of society. Might even displace Gates someday.

[albion]

So Frank, in your expert opinion, what is the best choice for a newbie. I dont want to spend half the price of my boat for a GPS system. I want something that I can see as well as understand.

[Frank C]

Everyman,
Expert opinion? ... Duane Dunn is the GPS expert, and he selected the Eagle 7" described earlier. I'm just reading the Specs & choosing the "pre-packaged all-inclusive" that seems best for me. I cannot tell what you should buy, and I never did actually pin down the total costs of a Garmin. You probably should, just to understand the market - be prepared to spend some time reading, but be careful not to overlook any pieces, maps, tranducers, cables, etc. I'd recommend Googling for the model you're considering, then going to read comments in various user groups. Here's how I chose, both the first time (7 yrs ago) and again this past summer.

• Set your budget range ... my range was a BoatBuck, or less;
  Set your package req'mts ... I wanted GPS & depth finder shown on one screen;
  I wanted to have plotter maps included within that budget;
  You need to choose maps for inland waters, or coastal waters, both would be more costly;
  Experience showed a 5-inch (diagonal) display meets my needs, larger is even better;
  Canvas the market for those features, within that price range.

Lowrance's small-boat Plotter/Sounders:

• Look up models 332 or 337-DF, 334 and 339-DF;
  (former 2 units have external GPS antenna, latter 2 have it internal);
  (DF indicates a dual frequency depth finder);
  All have minimum 5-inch diag display, all < $1,000;
  Lowrance NauticPath USA coastal chip @ $99;
  or MapCreate CD for USA inland waters @ $99;
  All using NMEA2k backbone network;
  OPTIONALLY: get the Eagle 7" display on older network at same prices;
  or upgrade to latest 7-inch display & network for about +$300.
  Lowrance's 5" displays are 480x480, TFT.

Garmin's small-boat Plotter/Sounders:

• Check on Models 178, 298, 398, 498;
  All with minimum 5-inch diag, color display, all < $1,000;
  Most units require adding regional map chips at varying costs;
  Garmin maps usually cost more than above ... but cost might be dropping;
  Garmin uses a propriety network;
  Check to see if Antenna & depth transducers are included, or extra;
  Garmin's 5" TFT displays are lower resolution than Lowrance, 240x320.

I expected that Lowrance's USA-nationwide maps would be much cheaper than Garmin's, plus I was already familiar with their software. And, I liked Lowrance's very flexible user-defined displays, permits me to choose a wide variety of maps & depth graphics, plus it overlays my choices of digital readings for depth, speed (and even fuel flow). I also liked having the all inclusive maps (on one chip) for boating in NorCal, SoCal, someday also FL and Chesapeake (where Mom lives). Who knows - might even get to AZ and TX Gulf someday!

I found most of those models would meet my criteria, but I chose the Lowrance 332, with single frequency depth finder, external GPS antenna, including the new backbone network described earlier. I added the NauticPath chip, including all USA coastal maps (single purchase, all regions, complete), an internet purchase, no sales tax, combined total cost w/maps @ $700 delivered. I can heartily recommend this choice of features & maps ... for me .... but you've seen above that many other owners chose the larger, 7-inch display and earlier cabling scheme, same maps - also a very good choice.
YMMV.

[Catigale]

Alternate route following Franks < BoatBuck criteria

Garmin 76 CS GPS handheld (also sold for $100 less as the West Marine Brand) and a cheapie laptop for the big screen...

You can use the laptop as a DVD player for kids too of course.

I like the handheld over mounted concept as it removes the theft issue if you carry it off, as well as serving to keep a good sailing log if you go on another boat!

You do get 'ripped' with Garmins $100 lock codes - I got lucky enough to have one cover 95% of my sailing - might be the case for most though!

When Abby and I take the Cheetah out, I get a nice picture of my sailing course for the day and total miles logged, etc....even if it looks like my Nov 11 100 foot trip from the ramp into the shore trees....

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I've had a laptop and handheld on board for years and I could never see using it as the primary device on our boats. (It is great for movies with our speakers and subwoofer installed below).

For me, the number one requirement is for the display to be at the wheel, in front of me at all times. I'd never accept having to go forward or below to look at the chart.

Even if it was waterproof, I have yet to find an acceptable place in our small boats to mount a laptop at the pedestal. And of course the laptop is not waterproof and would not take kindly to rain or salt spray. Even with my full enclosure I won't use mine in the cockpit.

You'll also find that in bright sunlight a laptop display is useless. It's not good to be shading and squinting to try and figure out if you are going to hit something.

If you want to use your's there, I'd suggest forgetting the normal handheld GPS unit and the cable and just get a simple WAAS Bluetooth GPS. You can tuck these below out of the way. Newer laptops will have the (BT) receiver already, any others can just use a cheap USB Bluetooth receiver to capture the coordinate data stream. If you do go with a hand held, make sure it has a USB cable, few laptops these days have serial ports. To use a serial port based handheld you will need a serial to USB converter ($20).

I've used my Bluetooth GPS with both my laptop and my Pocket PC with success. (I create all my routes on my laptop and transfer them to the Eagle GPS with a flash card.) My favorite and still #1 charting application (of the 6 I own) is Memory Map ( www.memory-map.com ). Software for either (or both in the case of memory map) can be had for under $100. Raster and Vector charts are now free from NOAA or Maptech. (Note: Canada still makes you pay for their charts.)

You can be on the water with this setup for under $200. There are even NMEA sounder units (cabled) available that will give you the depth information on the same laptop or PPC screen.

Still for me, you can't beat the convinience and ease of use of the all in one units like my Eagle SeaChamp 2000C DF (same as the Lowrance LCX-25C minus the NMEA 2000). Big (7") bright daylight viewable screen, WASS GPS, Dual Frequency sounder, two card slots (one for my navionics chart chip, and one for my route transfer chip). Waterproof, quite easy to remove for security, still small enough it fits inside my pedestal cover. Everything right at your fingertips. The NMEA 183 connectivity works just fine for my autopilot and computer connection via the USB adapter. I've always wanted one of these but up until this Boaters World closeout the unit and charts was pushing $2000 with tax. $599 was a deal I couldn't pass up.

[Tahoe Jack]

Hi Duane.....first, thanks for the heads-up finding this bargain SeaChamp. As noted on a previous post to this thread...I scored one and find it great. BTW, followed your last post fine till the last sentence re NEMA 0183 and USB connection...could you please clarify. Jack
Also, off topic, but for you deep south hurricane folks...we had another day of 70 plus mph sustained, gusting to 86mph...and dumping a few tractor trailor rigs, here in our valley just east of Tahoe....and we don't consider that too unusual....and we don't give the events names. We just loose our sense of humor when the power goes off for more than a few hours. The mountain-top winds a few miles away reached 120mph per TV folks. My silver tarp over the boat is in its second....and clearly last season. We use mostly bungees to keep from tearing out too many grommets...only a dozen lost last season.

[Catigale]

Laptops are a strictly below deck option, agreed...if you want the GPS 'big screen' at the wheel the handheld/laptop idea fails.

[AWKIII]

Interesting discussion.

I bought the new Garmin 178c. Its a great piece of equipment at pretty decent price point. For $470.00 I was able to get the unit with an internal antenna, dual frequency transducer and 20' of extension cable.

Picked up the U.S. Lakes chart package for another $70.00.

[i]"I and my staff run 20 2003 servers supporting over 2,000 users on XP and now Vista Enterprise, but we also support Macs, Suns, and Linux boxes, and get to see how far Microsoft goes to try to shut them out. Although we're an enterprise license site and must run Windows for a lot of applications, I strongly encourage others to consider Macs and Linux. They're what I use, and only dual-boot Windows on either as a last resort. Nothing would please me more than for the courts to get Microsoft out of Internet, productivity, and media applications, ordering them to release the code to the open source community." [/i]

Why? This kind of thought process has never made much sense to me as a business man. Microsoft spends billions of dollars in reasearch and development money to bring products to the market and they quickly become world-wide standards. As a result of this success, now they come under criticism for wanting to protect their products and markets? More incredibly you want the courts to put them out of business and give their intellectual property for free?

Why should Microsoft be chastised for no longer supporting some of its software products for the Mac? Many of the applications you mention are available from Apple and a few of them are bundled free on the machine itself. There have been many software companies that have abandoned the Mac over the years. The only two that stood by the company were Microsoft and Intuit. And Apple had to essentially beg Intuit to continue developing product for the Mac platform.

Its interesting how there is always a double standard in these things. Apple always had a proprietary operating system. In fact they were lauded for it. They finally dumped it and created a "new one", which it really wasn't. One must wonder where this company would be today if they chose to license the OS 20 years ago to hardware manufacturers.

What is really amusing about this argument is that Apple is just as guilty of playing the proprietary operating system game as anyone else. You don't have to look very far to see it in action. All those millions and millions of ipods pretty much tell the story. And the company has been downright vicious about protecting their market share. I would be too.

Apple is a good company. The boxes they build are a little overpriced but stunning pieces of technology. Microsoft is a good company also, just bigger with more product. The bottom line is they both protect their intellectual property and rightly so.

Just another point of view.

[Terry]

Laptops are a strictly below deck option, agreed...if you want the GPS 'big screen' at the wheel the handheld/laptop idea fails.

I ran into the same problem, still trying to work around it inexpensively.
The expensive route is to get a sunlight readable display notebook, not an option for me. So my latest attempt was to get a 3M privacy screen for the notebook which I recently ran into and purchased. It has been too cloudy and rainy to test as yet but I suspect if I cannot see the screen from an angle but have to be looking straight on then the sun will have the same problem trying to wash out the display. I bought a monitor arm & bracket from Staples to put the laptop on and I just clamp that onto the companionway ladder. Even with the hatch pulled forward over the notebook the sun still washes it out and my last hope is for the 3M screen to work, if not I'll have to buy a larger Garmin display, keeping my fingers crossed.

[Frank C]

Even after (if) you correct the sunlight problem, controlling a laptop in a boat is a nightmare, whether with keyboard, mouse or touchpad. By contrast, the control buttons on fixed or handheld GPS unit are purpose-designed for the environment, sometimes weather-proofed.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Jack,

The SeaChamp has a NMEA 183 serial port for connecting external devices. You have to buy a cable for this from LEI extras. It plugs in to the accessory socket where the Speed/Temp transducer is plugged in (this must also be a NMEA 183 device). At some point I'll have some time to spend in the boat to work out how to wire both to the accessory socket at the same time. The NMEA 183 standard allows multiple devices to be connected together, you just have to get all your sends and receives correct. The electrical limit of the signal is 3 - 4 devices. To go beyond this (unlikely in our boats) you can use a NMEA repeater that let's you connect many external devices. The NMEA standard calls for a 4800 bps connection speed much like the modems of the old days.

I want to use the external NMEA 183 connection for my autopilot. It's a listen only device. When following a route the SeaChamp sends out AP sentances that tell the autopilot what course corrections are needed to stay on the route. I will most likely also wire up a cable to a 9 pin serial port so I can connect the laptop as well although I don't really have a need for this as I move all my waypoints, routes, and tracks via a SD memory card.

You could use this serial connection to send data from the laptop to the GPS or to have the laptop listen to position data from the GPS and display your location on a moving map display on the laptop.

The issue is that for many years now a 9 pin serial port has not been included on any laptops. They have been replaced by USB (Universal Serial Bus). This means to connect a traditional 4800 bps serial device like the NMEA 183 accessory port on the SeaChamp you need an external adapter. They sell these for around $20. They are a short cable with a USB plug on one end and a 9 pin serial plug on the other end. I've had good luck with the one I bought but I've heard of others who have found them problematic.