Wood mods: preferences
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K9Kampers
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Wood mods: preferences
I'm looking for feedback on wood preferences for interior mods. Am currently considering maple or oak, to be varnished.
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kmclemore
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Kinda depends where you're gonna use it, but either should be fine if used in the cabin.
Oak will certainly be less expensive and is somewhat rot-resistant, and with proper staining can approach the look of teak or provide a lovely golden color, but it's also more problematic when used as an eating surface as it has a very open grain which will hold dirt if not filled properly during finishing.
Maple is harder and closer grained, and it can have some really pretty grain patterns, but it's also a lot more expensive for the good stuff. Also, it's harder to stain maple, so it's more difficult to get a rich, dark golden look. But then, many folks like the lighter, yellow-gold look of maple, too!
Oak will certainly be less expensive and is somewhat rot-resistant, and with proper staining can approach the look of teak or provide a lovely golden color, but it's also more problematic when used as an eating surface as it has a very open grain which will hold dirt if not filled properly during finishing.
Maple is harder and closer grained, and it can have some really pretty grain patterns, but it's also a lot more expensive for the good stuff. Also, it's harder to stain maple, so it's more difficult to get a rich, dark golden look. But then, many folks like the lighter, yellow-gold look of maple, too!
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K9Kampers
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I'm finalizing the re-design of my galley rack and shelf projects. The open grain of the oak is not as desirable as the grain patterns of the maple. Rather than milling my own, my local Lowes offers a good selection of both, pre-milled to various thicknesses and lengths.
They are seemingly affordably priced. Some steambending may be required depending on which design I go with.
They are seemingly affordably priced. Some steambending may be required depending on which design I go with.
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kmclemore
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Thanks, Steve, but I'm sure lots of others are great with wood here too!
As for the steam bending, both maple and oak respond well to steam. Oak is a wee bit harder to work with as it is prone to splitting, but if you steam it for long enough it works fine.
Sounds like maple might be the best choice here so long as you like the light color.
As for the steam bending, both maple and oak respond well to steam. Oak is a wee bit harder to work with as it is prone to splitting, but if you steam it for long enough it works fine.
Sounds like maple might be the best choice here so long as you like the light color.
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baldbaby2000
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baldbaby2000
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Graham Carr
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I would not be too worried about the weight. Red oak is actually light then Maple. One thing you have to be careful with Oak is if water gets behind the finished it will create a deep black stain. So be sure to give your project sufficient coats of finish and it’s a good idea to cover all sides including the sides that you do not see.
Average dried weight
(15 % moisture content)
Species Lbs. / Board foot
Northern Cedar 1.75
Western Cedar 1.92
Sitka Spruce 2.33
Red Oak 2.35
Alder, Red 2.35
Alaskan Cedar 2.61
Douglas fir 2.83
Honduras Mahogany 2.83
Philippine Mahogany 3.25
Tiger Maple 3.3
Teak 3.3
Sugar Maple 3.8
Rock Maple 3.8
White Oak 3.93
You might also consider Bamboo. You can buy it in planks like flooring. Bamboo is denser, harder and more durable then Maple, It’s actually 16% harder than maple; also it’s a 1/3 lighter in weight and more stable than oak. Plus Bamboo is sstronger than steel in tension and stronger than most concrete in compression.
You can have a smooth finish on your oak without applying tons of finish. All you have to do is fill the grain with wood filler. The finish product looks excellent! The product I use is from Parks http://www.newparks.com/profinisher-pg.html. This product is latex-based wood filler and you can purchase at Home Depot. To use you first must do all of your sanding, then you apply the filler. Then you give your project a final sanding after the filler is has dried. If you chose to stain your wood you will do this after the filler is sanded. Then I spray a sealer coat and then 4 to 6 light coats of finish.
FYI:
Are all boards created equal? No, you have to be careful were you buying from and what you grab from the pile. Some so called lumber yards sell lower quality materials.
Volumes upon volumes have been writing on this subject but I will try to just give a quick overview.
Selecting wood
Wood is cut in two ways. The first is “Plain-sawn” which is also known as through and through, Flat-sawn, Flat-grain or Slash-sawn. The second method is Quarter-sawn, which includes rift-sawn, comb-grain, edge-grain and vertical-grain. For plain-sawn the log is just ripped with parallel cuts through the entire log. The bulk of the boards will be plain & rift- sawn with a few quarter-sawn. For Quarter-sawn boards there are two methods for cutting. The most common and economical way is to cut the log into quarters and then cut each quarter into boards. This will put the grain at around 90°. The second method is more involved to explain (true quarter-sawn boards are cut radially) so do to time and space, I’ll pass. If you look at the end of the board you will see the end grain and the direction of the growth rings. The plain-sawn board will have a flat grain; growth rings are parallel to the face. The Quarter-sawn boards will have the grain at right angles to the face. In North America, plain-sawn boards will have the growth rings meeting the face of the board at 30°, when between 30°and 60°, it’s called rift-sawn and between 60° to 90° is Quarter-sawn. Flat sawn will give you a more decorative grain and Quarter-sawn is a straight figure.
Stability is a bit of a long subject, but in a nut shell the growth rings have different lengths. The outer longer rings shrink more then the shorter inner rings. This will cause the board to cup out and it will happen on the side which has the longer rings. That’s because the longer rings shrink more. On the other hand the growth rings on the Quarter-sawn board are running at 90° to the face and are basically the same length and thickness so they shrink almost in unison, hence a very stable board.
I give you this information so you have a better understanding to why it is important to take the time and cull your boards as you grab them out of the pile, but more importantly what to actually look for. Keep in mind flat grain boards tend to "cup" or distort, and therefore can split or check more easily. In some cases quite severely later on, especially if not seasoned properly, and hence it is best to stick to vertical grain wood if at all possible. Ask your supplier to verify the moisture content, it should be around 12% to 16%. If you pick-up a board and it feels heavy compared to the others, put it back no matter how pretty the grain is. It has high moisture content and it will ruin your beautiful project down the road.
You could make life simple and just buy plywood with the veneer of your choice and use banding on the edges. Plywood is extremely stable and strong! I prefer to limit the use of plywood to the caucus (box) of you cabinetry or flat panels in the doors. In the end veneers can chip. The problem is what do you do for your doors? If you use the wide boards you’re asking for trouble, remember longer rings shrink. To control this problem you simply do a glued-up panel. This is the method I use for all of my doors or any large surface and it’s quite simple once you know how to do it. Plus you do not need a shop like mine or Norm Abram's “New Yankee Workshop” to produce sound stable beautiful doors. I my younger days, I built doors in my apartment!
How to build a glued-up panel
To create a stable panel, you simply reduce the width of each board and then glue them together. I like to work with 2” wide boards. You could also use 1” x 4” nominal (actual size is ¾” x 3-1½”). The trick is you must reverse the grain of every other board before glue up. Look at the end grain and you will see the curve or arch of the grain. Draw an exaggerated curve so that it is clear which way it goes. Now when you lay out the boards on top of the clamps, you just turn every other curve the opposite direction. So 1st board curve up, 2nd curve down, 3rd curve up, 4th curve down and so on until you reach your desired width. Now glue and clamp. There are few other steps to insure the boards are straight and if any one is interested I will explain how to do this with out spending a fortune on tools. Just let me know and I’ll post it. By building your panels this way you will not have any problems with cupping. You see the first board is try to cup up the second is trying top cup down and so on. Plus you have drastically reduced the length of each outer growth ring. This will eliminate warping.
Well I better stop witting, wood is a major part of my life’s work and I can go on and on!
PS: my favorite wood is Cherry.
Average dried weight
(15 % moisture content)
Species Lbs. / Board foot
Northern Cedar 1.75
Western Cedar 1.92
Sitka Spruce 2.33
Red Oak 2.35
Alder, Red 2.35
Alaskan Cedar 2.61
Douglas fir 2.83
Honduras Mahogany 2.83
Philippine Mahogany 3.25
Tiger Maple 3.3
Teak 3.3
Sugar Maple 3.8
Rock Maple 3.8
White Oak 3.93
You might also consider Bamboo. You can buy it in planks like flooring. Bamboo is denser, harder and more durable then Maple, It’s actually 16% harder than maple; also it’s a 1/3 lighter in weight and more stable than oak. Plus Bamboo is sstronger than steel in tension and stronger than most concrete in compression.
You can have a smooth finish on your oak without applying tons of finish. All you have to do is fill the grain with wood filler. The finish product looks excellent! The product I use is from Parks http://www.newparks.com/profinisher-pg.html. This product is latex-based wood filler and you can purchase at Home Depot. To use you first must do all of your sanding, then you apply the filler. Then you give your project a final sanding after the filler is has dried. If you chose to stain your wood you will do this after the filler is sanded. Then I spray a sealer coat and then 4 to 6 light coats of finish.
FYI:
Are all boards created equal? No, you have to be careful were you buying from and what you grab from the pile. Some so called lumber yards sell lower quality materials.
Volumes upon volumes have been writing on this subject but I will try to just give a quick overview.
Selecting wood
Wood is cut in two ways. The first is “Plain-sawn” which is also known as through and through, Flat-sawn, Flat-grain or Slash-sawn. The second method is Quarter-sawn, which includes rift-sawn, comb-grain, edge-grain and vertical-grain. For plain-sawn the log is just ripped with parallel cuts through the entire log. The bulk of the boards will be plain & rift- sawn with a few quarter-sawn. For Quarter-sawn boards there are two methods for cutting. The most common and economical way is to cut the log into quarters and then cut each quarter into boards. This will put the grain at around 90°. The second method is more involved to explain (true quarter-sawn boards are cut radially) so do to time and space, I’ll pass. If you look at the end of the board you will see the end grain and the direction of the growth rings. The plain-sawn board will have a flat grain; growth rings are parallel to the face. The Quarter-sawn boards will have the grain at right angles to the face. In North America, plain-sawn boards will have the growth rings meeting the face of the board at 30°, when between 30°and 60°, it’s called rift-sawn and between 60° to 90° is Quarter-sawn. Flat sawn will give you a more decorative grain and Quarter-sawn is a straight figure.
Stability is a bit of a long subject, but in a nut shell the growth rings have different lengths. The outer longer rings shrink more then the shorter inner rings. This will cause the board to cup out and it will happen on the side which has the longer rings. That’s because the longer rings shrink more. On the other hand the growth rings on the Quarter-sawn board are running at 90° to the face and are basically the same length and thickness so they shrink almost in unison, hence a very stable board.
I give you this information so you have a better understanding to why it is important to take the time and cull your boards as you grab them out of the pile, but more importantly what to actually look for. Keep in mind flat grain boards tend to "cup" or distort, and therefore can split or check more easily. In some cases quite severely later on, especially if not seasoned properly, and hence it is best to stick to vertical grain wood if at all possible. Ask your supplier to verify the moisture content, it should be around 12% to 16%. If you pick-up a board and it feels heavy compared to the others, put it back no matter how pretty the grain is. It has high moisture content and it will ruin your beautiful project down the road.
You could make life simple and just buy plywood with the veneer of your choice and use banding on the edges. Plywood is extremely stable and strong! I prefer to limit the use of plywood to the caucus (box) of you cabinetry or flat panels in the doors. In the end veneers can chip. The problem is what do you do for your doors? If you use the wide boards you’re asking for trouble, remember longer rings shrink. To control this problem you simply do a glued-up panel. This is the method I use for all of my doors or any large surface and it’s quite simple once you know how to do it. Plus you do not need a shop like mine or Norm Abram's “New Yankee Workshop” to produce sound stable beautiful doors. I my younger days, I built doors in my apartment!
How to build a glued-up panel
To create a stable panel, you simply reduce the width of each board and then glue them together. I like to work with 2” wide boards. You could also use 1” x 4” nominal (actual size is ¾” x 3-1½”). The trick is you must reverse the grain of every other board before glue up. Look at the end grain and you will see the curve or arch of the grain. Draw an exaggerated curve so that it is clear which way it goes. Now when you lay out the boards on top of the clamps, you just turn every other curve the opposite direction. So 1st board curve up, 2nd curve down, 3rd curve up, 4th curve down and so on until you reach your desired width. Now glue and clamp. There are few other steps to insure the boards are straight and if any one is interested I will explain how to do this with out spending a fortune on tools. Just let me know and I’ll post it. By building your panels this way you will not have any problems with cupping. You see the first board is try to cup up the second is trying top cup down and so on. Plus you have drastically reduced the length of each outer growth ring. This will eliminate warping.
Well I better stop witting, wood is a major part of my life’s work and I can go on and on!
PS: my favorite wood is Cherry.
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kmclemore
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Nice posting, Graham.
I agree with the black staining of oak, and it should always be properly sealed. The same is true for mahogany and other commonly used boat woods. The exception is teak, of course. One should also avoid using brass screws in these woods, as they will also cause similar black staining if allowed to get moist.
I also agree with the idea of using alternating grain stock to make a stable panel - works very well in terms of stability and strength. However, it's a heck of a lot of work, and you don't get the same 'one board' grain patterns which IMHO can be somewhat of a loss visually, as I really enjoy seeing the variations and imperfections in the grain over a wide panel. So, for doors, if I was worried about warping in a moist environment, as on a boat, I would use plywood with a surface veneer, but to avoid the chipping of edges I'd use a matching veneer strip edge... works well and is very stable over time. I built the table for my Mac that way.
And I love cherry as well! Here's some cabinetry I designed for our bath and dressing room renovation - solid cherry exterior with maple inner drawer parts. Turned out pretty well, if I do say so myself.
(The vertical line on the built-in armoire is a reflection from a mirror.)
I agree with the black staining of oak, and it should always be properly sealed. The same is true for mahogany and other commonly used boat woods. The exception is teak, of course. One should also avoid using brass screws in these woods, as they will also cause similar black staining if allowed to get moist.
I also agree with the idea of using alternating grain stock to make a stable panel - works very well in terms of stability and strength. However, it's a heck of a lot of work, and you don't get the same 'one board' grain patterns which IMHO can be somewhat of a loss visually, as I really enjoy seeing the variations and imperfections in the grain over a wide panel. So, for doors, if I was worried about warping in a moist environment, as on a boat, I would use plywood with a surface veneer, but to avoid the chipping of edges I'd use a matching veneer strip edge... works well and is very stable over time. I built the table for my Mac that way.
And I love cherry as well! Here's some cabinetry I designed for our bath and dressing room renovation - solid cherry exterior with maple inner drawer parts. Turned out pretty well, if I do say so myself.
(The vertical line on the built-in armoire is a reflection from a mirror.)
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Graham Carr
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Now that is some sweet work! Did you build them? Are you in the trades? I do agree about the work involved for glued panels, I tend to go overboard some times. The other fun thing you could do is use plywood, but laminate with some nice exotic or highly-figured veneer. I have plans for building cabinets for my X. My problem is I work for myself so I could have time, but the only projects I ever work on for my clients. That’s the problem when your shop is 30’ away and a home office; I never have separation from personal or business. So I just completed a custom cabinet reproduction job last week and decided enough is enough. I keep telling myself, your going to have some slack time soon. My hours are going to be 8-5 M-F. This winter my shop is dedicated strictly for my boat projects.
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kmclemore
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LOL! No, I'm not in the trades, though sometimes I wish I was... I love working with wood. Presently, though, I'm a global technology engineering director (IT), but that's only the latest in a long line of several previous careers - auto mechanic, body man, welder, auto restorer, warehouse manager, computer systems engineer, etc. But my two real loves are building performance engines and designing cabinetry... and occasionally I even get the time to build or make one! 
Speaking of exotic veneers, I agree, they look wonderful... I've used Constantine's in the past and they have a nice selection. My next dream project is to make another Mac table using this compass rose, below. (And, I suppose, I'd end up selling my previous table to someone here!)
But as you say, it's all a matter of TIME. (sigh.)
Speaking of exotic veneers, I agree, they look wonderful... I've used Constantine's in the past and they have a nice selection. My next dream project is to make another Mac table using this compass rose, below. (And, I suppose, I'd end up selling my previous table to someone here!)
But as you say, it's all a matter of TIME. (sigh.)