Heavy weather-sailing under main only

[delevi]

As for the storm jib, I'm still not sold. My 110 jib by Quantum Sails was made specifically as a heavy weather sail. It was made flatter and designed to be roller reefed much of the time. When rolled up 2/3 to 3/4, the foot is one foot or less above the bow rail. Looks just like a storm jib. The only drawback may be the point of entry due to a rolled sail at the luff, but in conditions warranting this config, I don't think it matters much. It's a great setup when beating in 25-30 kts wind... The small jib provides the necessary ballance for pointing and enough thrust at the bow to plow through the waves, while the mainsail provides most of the horsepower. Close hauled is actually the strongest point of sail on my boat in heavy weather... and I can get within 45 degrees of the true wind.

Leon

[baldbaby2000]

It makes sense to me that more headsail in heavy wind will increase weather helm. I notice it too. I suspect it's because of the extra power and boat heel. Consider that the forward force that pushes the boat forward is centered vertically some distance up the mast; maybe forward of it or aft of it. Imagine if the boat is heeled and you tied a line to that spot on the mast (say for now it's centered on the mast) and pulled it in the direction of that force produced by the sails. Since the boat is heeled, the force is going to turn the boat into the wind and the more force there is the greater the effect.

[Currie]

...Consider that the forward force that pushes the boat forward is centered vertically some distance up the mast; maybe forward of it or aft of it. Imagine if the boat is heeled and you tied a line to that spot on the mast (say for now it's centered on the mast) and pulled it in the direction of that force produced by the sails. Since the boat is heeled, the force is going to turn the boat into the wind and the more force there is the greater the effect.

Hi BB2k,

That explains weather helm alright - but I still think it's a possible sign of poor balance. The thing is (IMHO), if a boat is balanced correctly, dropping the jib should shift the center-of-effort way back behind the mast. Yes there will be less heel so the imaginary tow-line isn't out as far over the water, but the aftward shift in COE should outweigh it, creating more weather helm. I could see if it was a genny, but a working jib adding weather helm is a new one on me. Still, might just be the way Mac's are.

Cheers,

~Bob

[Currie]

You know, I was just poking around some websites looking to see if any other boat models have the same issue. I did see where one guy reports that certain hullforms much prefer to sail on their feet, particularly wide/shallow hulls. The Mac's are semi-planing, so I could imagine the flats of the hull acting funny at large angles of heel (like steering a wakeboard). So who knows This does bring to mind Bob Perry's review of the Mac where he says the Mac should be a decent performer if you keep it on its feet.

Cheers,
~Bob

[delevi]

Here's a picture of Rusalka at the dock. No ballast, keel all the way up:

As you can see by the black stripe in relationship to the water, it appears parallel.

Now with ballast and keel all the way down:



Clearly, there is a slight dip in the bow. This is normal since the boat drops 3 inches with ballast in. The dip is clearly at the bow, which supports the theory of where most of the ballast is located in the Mac I don't think this is any different than a stock at least not enough difference to make a difference IMHO.

I think the headsail/weatherhelm issue is a combination of total sail area and hull shape, and what BB saild. Yes, this happens with the jib as well. I was out sailing on the Bay today. Had the genoa on the furler. Wish I had the jib. Forecast was 15-25 kts with small craft advisory (spirited sailing) I just didn't want to take the time to do a sail change so I figured I would rought it out witht he genny. I put the first reef in the main as I headed out, winds were 12 kts. Used the full genny on a close hauled tack heading north through the bay. As I passed the SF/Oakland Bay Bridge, winds picked up to 15 kts with gusts in the 20s. Furled in about half the genny and kept on trucking. As I rounded Alcatraz, winds picked up to 23-27 kts so I put the second reef in the main and furled in most of the genny. I had to re-sheet it through the jib tracks to trim for a close hauled tack (real wish I had the jib.) I tacked and rounded alcatraz, then beared off to a deep beem reach (90-100 deg apparent.) Winds still around 25 kts with nice chop on the beam. Then things got hairy. Boat kept trying to round, one time coming dangerously close to an oncoming sailboat on the opposite tack. Autopilot couldnt' keep up, so it quite the dance to avoid the other boat and furl in the rest of the genny. Once under main only, I was in full control, humming along at 6.5 kts under just the double reefed main, heeling around 20 degrees. As I got south of the Bay bridge, the sea calmed and winds dropped to 15-18 kts. Unfurled half the genny and really kicked it up. Speed was 6.8-7.3 kts. I was running out of time, so it was time to drop sails, puther on autopilot and go back to the marina, cleaning up the sails, putting on the covers, etc, as the boat motored herself to the marina waypoint.

It was a fabulous day

I believe the sailplan is balanced when you center the helm, let go of the wheel and maintain your course, unless of course a wave knocks you off course. This can be achived under main alone, as long as you're not sailing to windward.

cheers all,
L.

[beene]

However, with a heavier motor on the back.... ballast in and keel down...


Ballast empty...


G

[Currie]

Hi Leon,

Thanks for taking some pics. Your M looks about the same as mine on the water line. When no one's in it, it sits slightly bow-down (w/ ballast full). I'll have to pay attention better when I'm out in stronger winds to see if it does the same thing. I got no other ideas

Cheers,

~Bob

[delevi]

Bob,
In my view, I think I found a solution to a problem. Sure it would be nice to sail with both sails all the time, but if the going gets rough and you can still keep sailing in control at a reasonable speed, it's all good in my book.

Geoff,
Wow! Wow! and holly cow! Your bow tilts up w/o ballast and perfectly level with ballast in. I was halfway kidding a while back when I said that perhaps a huge, heavy, massive, monster engine on the transom may actually improve the Mac's sailing performance.... but looking at your pics, it might just be a good way to ballance the hull. I would seriously consider that Etec 115 if I wasn't casualy shopping for that Beneteau or Catalina : Now why don't you hitch up Pegasus and tow it over to SF so we can test all this out on my salty pond

Cheers,
L.

[bastonjock]

i was working on my sail balance at the weekend,i was trying to steer by using only the sails.My problem is that like leon i sail in an area similar to what leon experiences.I have tides to contend with,the macx is so light that its get bullied by the elements very easily,i have wave motion,tidal stream and wind direction all coming at varying strengths

i need to get a new mainsail,the one that i have is now 7 years old,the new HH working jib holds its shape well yet the mainsail luffs no mater how much tension i put on it and as for those stock rudders,they just flap about too much

in the light variable winds that i experienced over the weekend,i would get the sails ballancing well,but the tide meant that i would have to constantly correct the steering,its worse in a following sea, and running before the wind

[Richard O'Brien]

I have to put in my 2 cents 2. My experience is pretty much like Leon's. I have had very little luck with the main reefed, making only 3 kts. or so on a reach. I've hit 6 plus knots with the main and a tiny hanky of jib or genoa. I always wait to reef until it's plus 16-20 kts. I much prefer to hang just a little patch of genoa out, and yes I have had more success pulling my sheets to the jib track. I certainly would like to change the sail on the furler, like Art suggested but my headstay line doesn't have a block at the top, and would just bind I think? I have to look into that.

Richard

[delevi]

Richard,
There is a place for a block at the forestay attachment. If you place it right, it won't interfere with your furler.

[baldbaby2000]

Thanks for posting the photos guys. My boat sits similar to Leon's: bow down at the dock with ballast in. I think it sails better with more weight in front. I've sailed several times in light winds with no ballast and surprising found no improvement in speed compared to full ballast.

[beene]

I have been toying with that idea from the get go.

Go for it Leon.

That and a 3rd reef.

Can I spend your money good or what?

LOL

G

[Highlander]

Here's my ballast mty bigger eng. block than Beene's


notice my idasailor rudders
Leon did you get my p/m

J

[delevi]

John,

I replied to your PM, but for some reason it is still sitting in my outbox and hasn't been delivered.