Sand Bags

[Oskar 26M]

My crew reacted the same as your Admiral Boblee. Once safely back at the dock ( or maybe a bit later after the was on the trailer and they were on dry land) they were all smiles and reckoned they "enjoyed the day...overall..."

But I still have a lot to learn about the Mac in conditions like those.

[Boblee]

What it did do was get me looking at the steering under power as there really is an awful lot of movement in the linkages when you need every bit of feel you can get.
If I was going to keep the boat after next year I would seriously think about hydraulic or at least a direct cable to both motor and rudders.
We had no problems once we got out of the confused sea for the last 3k's but the 20 k crossing especially right in the middle was almost impossible to read, I forgot to mention we had about a metre + swell running with the tide but across our bow and much bigger waves coming from the stern with the wind.
It was ok for the first 1-2k's until the tide really got moving and the wind came up, was really glad to get into a sheltered bay for the night.
As I said I never felt under threat but the biggest problem is worrying about the admiral and trying to allay her fears when you get spun 40-60 deg off course.

[Currie]

I'm currently using 160lbs. of softener salt (headed to my water softener soon - since salt hydrates and becomes a mess). I added it under the rear berth to counter the electric marine toilet and holding tank I added in the forward section. The head mod only adds up to about 90-100lbs (with flush water), but it takes around twice that to set the empty boat back to where it was on its waterline (slightly bow-down). I may go to sand, but I doubt it will be water. I needed something permanent to balance the mods in the bow. Motoring really suffered without the added salt - I couldn't get my bow to plane up. So having water that can be dumped does no good when trying to motor for me. I may also throw a piece of styrofoam under the berth to make sure the sand is at least of neutral bouyancy when all is said and done.

FWIW - Planing probably wouldn't be as much as issue for the guys (Beene, et al) with huge motors. They often need outboard transom wedges just to get the bow to stay down. Not so with me and my meager 50HP Suzi. Let us know how it goes Leon.

Cheers,
~Bob

[Boblee]

Currie you can cut a bit of water out of your head by minimising the flush water tank (porta potti) you actually can get away with very little weight but even with a proper head just check how much you actually need to hold for flushing you could be surprised.
If you can dump (no pun intended) more regularly this also cuts down on the weight you are carrying, where there is no problems with dumping effluent or privacy problems the bow pulpit rail makes a good seat and is far more environmentally friendly than chemicals.

[delevi]

ronacarme,

I think some of these things you mentioned don't apply to the Mac, at least the Having recently read up on dinghy sailing techniques, it is recommended to move all crew weight aft when broad reaching or running. Upwind is different, but I don't see how the extra ballast can hurt, especially if it brings the hull in balance rather than bow tipping forward. Remeber, the drive of the sails also tip the bow forward. The only concern I have is performance under power and light winds, though not too concerned about light wind... If it is blowing less than 7 knots, I'm running the iron horse.

Oskar & Boblee,

I have experienced your situations all too often, both under sail or power. I'm glad you both didn't feel that you were in any real danger, nor did I. Confidence is a vital trait for any skipper. But I would suggest that we should view this issue seriously. There is in fact a significant danger here. While under sail, there is a high risk of broaching under the scenarious we're discussing. Happened to me several times in open ocean... quite scarry. Under power, the risk is lower but suddenly whipping around 45-90 degrees runs the risk of loosing someone overboard. I have posted a number of threads about lessening this effect (before looking into ballast aft.) I'll summarize what has worked for me.. obviously haven't solved the problem but reduced it quite a bit...

First, pull the daggerboard up 3/4 of the way or all the way up. If up all the way, the leeway may not hurt you and will compensate somewhat for the bow driving to weather. This reduces the tripping effect. You don't need much if any lift from the board when sailing downwind. The lift actually makes the problem worse. Don't know what to tell you guys. Suppose you can lift the board all the way rather than 3/4. Second, I find that dropping the jib helps a lot. This keeps the bow from driving into the waves and tripping up the stern when hit by a quartering wave. The downside is you loose the leeward force needed to point the bow where you want. I'm still unsure if the issue is the headsail driving the bow down or just total sail area. Alternately, you can try sailing with just the headsail and no main. The main's lever action combined witht he waves escalates the problem. I'm in the process of having a 3rd reef installed in the main, and may experiment with tripple reefed main and full jib or partially furled jib. Another trick I used with some success is using the main as the primary engine, (reefed if conditions warrant) and a tiny amount of jib (about 1/4) overtrimmed. The overtrimmed jib gives leeway to the bow to keep it moving straight while the main provides the horsepower.

Well, that's all the tricks I have up my sleeve. The next step is to experiment with the sand. The water just sounds like way too much hassle and much more expensive, especially since this is an experiment. Now does anybody know where I can get some of these sacks? I checked Home Depot and they don't stock them.

Leon

[K9Kampers]

Leon-

Look into (poly) grain bags - try a grain or livestock store.

[delevi]

Thanks K9.

Here's a video Beene shot of us sailing downwind on SF Bay in 30 kts under single reefed main and no headsail
http://s274.photobucket.com/albums/jj25 ... CI0210.flv

[Boblee]

Leon
It wasn't the wind as such it was more the confused sea caused by the cross tidal current and swell with also at the end some richochet off the headlands and rocks as oskar had but once into a smaller passage (3k wide) we still had the wind and actually probably more but the waves were fairly even and only on the stern about 30 deg.
If the admiral wasn't on board I would have been tempted to hoist some sail but she was already stressed enough.
The first time I got caught was in the Whitsundays sailing along nicely with about 15-20knot winds at 30 deg astern but as we neared the corner of an island we started to get some large wave buildup caused by the tide, I dropped the sails but once we got up to the headland the wind was accelerating and so was the tide coming the opposite way along with a bad richochet effect from the headland.
This only lasted for about 3/4 of a k but it took a fair while to beat against the current and large yachts I saw seemed to be having as much or more problems than me, the sea was confused but so was I this one was made a little worse as there were shallow rocks out a fair way also but again there didn't appear to be danger of swamping etc just holding a steady coarse.
Directly around the corner in a small bay it was perfectly calm with no current at all.
note our northern eastern and central areas have fairly good tides from 2-5 m but around our north west where I want to go next year they are up to 10m (30ft) and with 800 beautiful islands it should be FUN.
Just have to find someone to come along as I think I have buckleys and none chances to get the admiral along even though the fishing is as good as it gets and she loves fishing

[delevi]

Bob,

As I've been saying, the Mac can handle the wind, particularly with proper reefing controls. It's the big seas that give us troubles. Keep working on the Admiral. I know the deal. An ongoing effort to get her out on the water. If I learned anything in my 20 years in sales (real estate) it's persistence Just keep at it. Keep talking about the great fishing to be had

fair winds,
L.

[Oskar 26M]

I found this in a thread from 2004 after a search on steering following sea. The thread was locked and I'm not sure how to paste a link to it, so with thanks to Frank C and others who contributed to a thread entitled "boat waddles at slow motoring speeds:

The boat is definitely sensitive to winds, so it helps to keep speed a little higher (say 5 knots). But I've never experienced anything quite so dramatic as you described. It almost sounds like the other problem ... with CB fully deployed, the track wanders due to foil lift.

Installing Suzuki 115 hp wrote:Even at 10 knots, dead ahead, the symmetrical foil sets up vigorous alternating lift across one side or the other. This causes oscillations that constantly redirect the vessel's path. The result is imprecise, unpredictable, potentially dangerous steering. This is far from mysterious, and completely unrelated to the hull, the transom, torsion, or any other structural design element, or failure thereof. The foil is simply causing fully understandable and expected, but undesireable lift to either side. It's not mysterious, not deficient, and certainly not structural in any manner.

Even at only 5 knots, the fully deployed CB will indeed cause unpredictable handling. However, I frequently extend only 3 inches of CB line as a skeg, with a noticeable tracking benefit.

In my post earlier post, when I said got a bit of control by dropping some fins and slowing down to 5-6 knots, I had dropped the daggerboard down about a foot, a depth that I've found gives quite good control at that speed in calmer waters. Was that still too much ?? I might try less the next time I encounter these conditions

[bastonjock]

i would love to come up with a solution for improving the way that my performs in a following sea.I have sailed my mac in everything up to a force 6-7 and gone through some very turbulent water,I sail in the North Sea and its cold sometimes very cold.The only way that i have found so far for improving the handling in a following sea is to run the engine,it improves the handling a lot,i only run the engine at 1000 rpm but it is enough to counter the worst effects.

As for wave height,the mac is a light boat and will always get pushed around by the waves,on my last trip i had following sea the forecast was for 5-6 with it building to a 7,the winds were from the South East so i had an island between me and the worst of it (UK),the wind was moving around and sometimes it would be directly on the stern or just slightly off on either quarter,as long as i paid attention i was fine,but if i dropped my concentration,it was round up time,the waves were not too big at around 2-4 ft,i had the boat under control.On other occasions the wind was coming from the North east and that gives way to larger waves,the effort in fighting the wheel to kep the boat wallowing in a straightish line takes the enjoyment out of it.

At no point did the boat in general feel threatened but ive always been suspicious of the rack and pinion steering and in all honesty,its not up to taking a constant bashing from waves in excess of 4ft on the stern,so one thing that im looking at is an emergency tiller.

I dont think that adding any ballast to the stern area of a would achieve anything,but adding some to the bow might just help,when C130 King and i were doing speed trials,we managed another 2 knots of speed by having C130 stand at the bow,so a guys weight was enough.

Before i went and added extra water ballast to the bow,id try the idea out using sand bags first,if it works great ,if it does not then it has not hit the wallet to hard,400lbs sounds too much to me,id try it at around 200lbs.

[c130king]

when C130 King and i were doing speed trials,we managed another 2 knots of speed by having C130 stand at the bow,so a guys weight was enough.

Trust me...I was sitting...and holding on for dear life. I have seen how these Scottish drive.



Jim

[Matt19020]

I am reading a lot of post about if more ballast should be placed in the forward or aft sections of the boat.
I recently pulled my boat out for the season and it seems fairly balanced (at least in the slip with water ballast in). I have a fixed head with 9 gallon holding tank in the bow along with a secondary anchor and 20' of chain. Is it possible to tell by the photos below if it appears "well balanced" or "sitting correctly" or would you recomend ballast adjustment forward or aft?

Edit- I should have stated "based on the waterline discoloration" on the hull. It appears that my bow may be about 1-2 inches lower...that is if the factory stripe is considered level.

[delevi]

Matt,
Sitting on the trailer you can't tell anything. The boat would need to be in the water with ballast in. It may depend on the weight of your engine. Seems like the consesus for most owenrs is that bow dips forward. Beene's 07 with massive 75 hp engine is level on the water. owners have posted that the bow tips up rather than down.


My boat w/o ballast (look at the black stripe)


With ballast


Beene's boat, ballast full


Ballast empty

Leon

[Matt19020]

Delevi... I should have stated "based on the waterline discoloration" on the hull. It appears that my bow may be about 1-2 inches lower...that is if the factory stripe is considered level.