LandingLoop for Docking

[aya16]

wow 30 knot cross wind blue, Thats a tuff one especially if you cant have the dagger board or rudders down. The docking maneuver I described is the best I have found for the mac, Lucky for me the wind where I dock is almost a constant and comes almost from directly aft. In what you described I would try and use the wind to my advantage to push the mac up against the dock. So the wind would help me make a decision as to what side of the dock I attempt to doc at.

Experts, well at what point do people go from mediocre to expert? How and when do we get our expert title? To me that comes from knowing the boat and its capabilities and using that to our advantage.
We are all human and do make mistakes, but I think one difference would be if a person starts his maneuver and it looks and feels like its not going to work, an expert will do a go around and try again, most people will feel committed no matter what and try and save the maneuver. Same with launching a boat, I will pull the boat up and back down as many times as it takes to get the boat exactly where I want it, some people will try and salvage a botched attempt. Think airplane, when you try and land a plane and you are not going to make it, you do a fly around and try again, not try and make it anyway.

In my case I use the mac sometimes alone, so all my docking launching recovery is based on that, even when there are others aboard my boat. That means my boat is up against the dock at a dead stop, (for seconds if the wind is blowing, but enough time for me to get off and secure the boat by myself). The dock landing loop to me would be one more thing to get in the way, and you can only secure one cleat at a time. In a cross wind, you do that then the mac bow will turn completely around on you and then you have another problem, by getting off the boat, engine running and in neutral, I can control the boat from the shrouds with both doc lines, fore and aft in my hand ready to tie off. An expert also doesnt have a problem, in a sticky situation, to toss a line to a stranger on the dock and say hey grab that line will you?

All things considered, I guess the landing loop would have its place sometimes, But my point was to not let that be the holy grail of docking, that if needed people should practice docking maneuvers for a couple hours to get a feel for the boat. Being an expert docking our boats doesnt mean we dont make mistakes, or is it brain surgery, Its only confidence in our ability to use the capabilities of the boat to maneuver it around. With the mac, we have very powerful tools at hand to help, you dont have on most boats, that is the long double rudders, and the dagger board, not to mention the 1100 extra pounds of water on board, and the fact the boat can be almost turned on a dime at very slow speeds with the use of the rudders, daggerboard, and engine.
But I will turn my expert title in till someone else bestows that on me.
Mike

[Québec 1]

wow 30 knot cross wind blue, Thats a tuff one............. people should practice docking maneuvers for a couple hours to get a feel for the boat.

Mike

One half day ...meaning 3 hours of just practicing coming in and out of my slip gives me more experience docking than anyone in the marina. Practice is the essential marker of any successful person. Luck is the companion of most of us.
Q1

[Rick Westlake]

One half day ...meaning 3 hours of just practicing coming in and out of my slip gives me more experience docking than anyone in the marina. Practice is the essential marker of any successful person. Luck is the companion of most of us.

My first day with my Beija-Flor - my first day owning a boat too large to carry on my shoulders - I spent a couple of hours just docking and departing from my slip. I tried to make all my mistakes then and there - and I made some winners, including a fall overboard into waist-deep water between the finger-pier and Beija-Flor! (Blub - sputter - poof - hiss - gotta buy a new cartridge for my SOSpenders!)

I didn't succeed in making "all" my mistakes that day, but I was competent enough to back the Beija-Flor into the slip in those conditions I was willing to go sailing. And I was prudent enough to be wearing my PFD before I even cast off; now that I'm out at the Chesapeake with Bossa Nova living on her trailer, the PFD goes on before the boat goes down the ramp.

Practice, practice, practice. If it doesn't "make (you) perfect," at least it will make you more competent. And safer.

[blue angel]

Mike Aya, werent you involved that recent high winds demo sail our of CA, posted on the macgregor site? If so, I am guessing most of us would gladly give you the xpert titlle, and listen carefully to what you say. on the other hand having a steady stern wind to dock in sounds pretty tame compared to some situations I have seen. I have seen 90 mph winds on our lake when the boat docks broke loose and headed out into the lake.

as I pilot, I liked your go around if it looks bad analogy, that and practicing sounds like great advice, and I pretty much agree with everything you and others said about practice, just like we need to practice touch and goes in airplanes, we need to practice docking in tough conditions if the goal is go cruising where we will encounter all kinds of different conditiions. actually docking the mac in high side winds or currents reminds me how tough docking a float plane in AK could be in a previous part of my life. in both cases, one has to anticipate what the wind will do the kite next and try to stay ahead with a corrective strategy..and if it looks bad, as you say, try to go around and try again.

my slip is not protected behind a breakwater, and we get some strong colorado mt. winds at times, and the winds are usually cross winds, to make it all more challenging, I often leave my hank on jib in a bag on the front, which increases the tendency of the bow to take off sideways (especailly with slow speed appraoches) even more. have started tossing it in the forward hatch under really strong winds, but the bow is light and tends to be pushed around by the wind. I have pretty much learned to control in coming in backwards or forwards, but the landing loops can help at times.

I also agree with trying to get to the point to where you can do it all alone is a good goal, on the other hand, our assistants like to be helpful, and using the landing loop at the front of the boat to grab a cleat as it goes by is something they can easily and safely do, much safter than trying to jump off and getting hurt (which is something they tend to want to do if not carefully instructed), and when coming into the dock forwards at a 45 angle into a stong cross wind it can be especaily helpuful for them l to catch the cleat at the end of a finger dock, as it goes by, a piece of cake with the landing loop. if one first routes the line the line around the outside stays to come back to the cockpit after being wrapped around the bottom of the bow pulpit, then one can make sure the bow doesnt veer off to windward , fron the cockpit, before one can ge the stern of mid or spring lines attached. One can keep the motor running and can keep the boat pinned against the windward dock, even in a very stong crosswind until one decides it is safe to put it in neutral and step off with the stern line.

thanks to mike and others for all the good adivice

[aya16]

Naaa thats not me, Im more likely to bring the mac in one day (after posting the docking procedures I do) in front of the twenty five or so mac owners where I store my boat, That also read and contribute here, watch in horror as I expertly slide the mac into a dock and take a header into the water or flat on my face on the dock in front of them. Thats certainly not beyond me. Guess I could use the landing loop to hang myself if I ever did that in front of all those nice mac people.

I can only remember a few times coming into the dock and the wind blowing so hard I needed help, a couple times I tossed a line to a stranger. Everytime I do take people out they offer to help, They ask what they can do, my answer is almost always to move over to the other side of the boat and stay out of my way. (ask in a nice way of course) To me its like that airplane landing thing, if passengers want to help, I dont say sure you do the rudders and the brakes Ill do the wheel, It just doesnt work for me. I have used on occasion keeping the engine running at idle in reverse hard over to pin the arse end to the dock as I got off and tied the bow, like you said. I dont recommend this as the mac can certainly get away and when I have done it I had others on the boat and showed them how to put the shifter in neutral for me.

Real windy days I need help walking the mac to the trailer, like I said the wind blows almost directly from aft and the mac being walked to the trailer can pick up some speed in a heavy wind. But there again if its blowing that hard and Im all alone I will walk the mac and re tie to cleats as we go.

Mostly Karen and I have a routine, she has certain jobs, and I have mine in docking and launching. Hers is to pull the board and rudders up, turn the engine off and tilt it up and open the water valve. Mine is to dock, tie up go get the truck and trailer, then walk the mac to the trailer. Sometimes she has to get off and help walk it to the trailer. We are expert in car key transfer, meaning we lost, not once but twice truck keys in the drink right next to the boat, as she handed them to me. First time I dove for them, second time I had stored a magnet and line on board after the first time and got them back that way. This was many years ago, and different boats, almost all the learning I did with boats was from hard knocks. Almost everything I have read here of dumb, Corney, silly mistakes, did that done that, you new mac (and boat) owners, your lucky we dont have drain plugs in our boats, I have left them out too as the boat sits real low in the water when you come back from parking the truck.
Mike

[aya16]

ohhh new thought, those that use the landing loop do me a favor, as your wife or girl friend is standing on the bow of the mac with it in hand, take a video of it, the boats forward motion from the engine and then a sudden reverse to stop the boat should be interesting, as the mac doesnt have a whole lot of hand holds up front. or a nice gust of wind going on as she loops the cleat and hangs on for dear life on a slippery deck as the boat gets blown away from the dock.: look at the pix's again ( http://www.landingloop.com/) that girl sitting there all calm landing loop in her hands grabbing the cleat, and if capt Ron there in the pix should smack that boat in reverse, and goes to hard to fast shes shark bait, no way would she let go of that expensive gadget or dock line.

Again did this done that, I once saw my boat floating away with no one on board as I came back to the dock after parking the truck (not the mac) closer inspection revealed a pair of hands hanging off the bow rail, yep karen, as she acted like a dock bumper to protect the boat from the rocks, as I never showed her how to push the throttle lever in to engage the gears, after I started, then launched the boat I left the handle in warm up mode. Poor karen didnt know what to do as she had no control of the boat. So she jumped over and held onto to the bow rail. All though I thought it was funny, she didnt, not for many years.
Mike

[SkiDeep2001]

She's a keeper

[blue angel]

a helper can sit on the front of the m,

note the girl in the landing loop video is seated too.

just have the helper face sideways with legs between the aft bow pulpit stanchion, and tell them to stay there seated with the landing loop in hand, holding onto the bow pulpit with the other hand, keeps them out of your way in the back too

one need not stop too fast, just come in fast enough to overcome the cross wind but still plan to be stopped or close to it when the boat is far enough into the slip and the stern pinned to the dock, with the sideways engine thrust, then step off with the stern line after putting the boat in neutal.

[blue angel]

and you need not reverse thrust, once the spring line is in place, a small amount of forward thrust turned away from the side of the dock you are getting off on will put the stern against the dock, if you plan the momentum right, there is just a genle stop against the sping line.

[aya16]

This whole thread is funny,
Ok heres the scenario, getting ready to dock. he: Ok honey go below and get that landingloop: her: whats the landing loop? He: you know that new thing we bought that has that rope on the end to dock the boat, hurry were getting close. Her: ok I got it, what do you want me to do with it? He: just climb out there on the deck and go all the way forward and catch the cleat on the dock. Her: Im not going up there, are you kidding, Ill slip and fall like you did when you tried to put the mainsail up. He: dont worry were going slow and its perfectly calm right now. her: ok, Ill try it,(as she climbs up on the dock slipping a little with both hands on the landing loop, gets about half way) He: hey, come back and put your life vest on... her: what the f... why do I need a life vest we are 30 feet from the dock? He: because you might fall in trying to catch the cleat. Her: you know what, you do it Im not going to try it. He: hurry were almost to the dock.. Her: just dock it like we always did. He: we cant, we spent 70 bucks for that thing, we need to use it.. Her: you use it, you should have listened to Mike when he wrote all that nutty stuff about it before we bought it.

The directions you guys are giving using the thing sounds more complicated then doing a regular docking, first you have to get someone dumb enough to go forward during docking maneuvers, second you have to tell them how to use it. It sounds easy on this board, but I guarantee you when you tell some one to go forward and catch a cleat with it, and (the key phrase) "dont let go, when you get it" will be taken literally and someone goes swimming sometime, I would bet on it. But who am I to spoil all your great memories like me and karen had, I just want to be told of what happens and some great video's or pix's would be great to go along with it....Im already busting up laughing as I write this, as pix's of this happening go through my mind. No offence to anyone and especially those that have had mishaps, (its all part of boating) If we only had video of all the mishaps Karen and I have had over the years, although most werent funny when they happened, we look back and bust out laughing when we talk about them now. So many avoidable some not so avoidable things happened to us. I should keep my mouth shut and let people live those memories them selves.
Mike

[SkiDeep2001]

Don't know if this has been seen here before, it's patent pending, but looks like it could be very useful. http://www.landingloop.com/ Rob

BWAAHAHA And all this started with one little sentence, there should be an icon of laughing face lying on side with tears rolling off cheek and sn*t coming out nose What have I wrought Rob

[aya16]

off topic a bit, I was reminded of some other dumb stuff I have done. 5 years ago we took delivery of a shinny new mac m, we were told to break in the engine for ten hours. I asked Karen if she wanted to just take it out That coming Saturday and we will run it from Marina Del ray, to long beach have lunch and shoot back before night fall. She ok'ed that and we went to west marine to buy some life vests and flares and things to be coast guard compliant, Karen of course shopped for foo foo stuff. We launched did not have a compass yet, no charts, no radio just a cooler full of cokes and the crap we bought at west marine.

I have fished and boated up and down the coast all my life from Santa Monica bay to long beach and south, where I live, I know every inch of that water. Who needs a compass and charts in day light?
Well we made it to long beach around 2 in the afternoon, seems that Suzuki 50 didnt get 15mph at break in rpm, like I was lead to believe. (excuse) Any way we had a late lunch, then headed back, before we rounded the bend into Santa Monica bay it was already getting dark. Then it dawned on me, I only one other time came out of MDR and never came back in driving and the time I came back in was the test drive on the mac, let alone at night,so I was not paying attention to anything else at the time. We were screwed, all those lights, not wanting to get to close to shore and I dont know where the entrance was, except somewhere near the airport (lax). Good lord if I only had a chart, dumb dumb dumb. A few hours into this, its completely dark, except all those shore lights, I spot a jet taking off from the airport, now is MDR NORTH OR SOUTH OF THE AIRPORT?

Then Karen said she bought a couple plastic maps that she wanted to use for place mats for dishes, maybe one was of Santa Monica bay, Well we lucked out one was, and MDR was right there north of LAX.
But there were so many lights, flashing red green blue everywhere. Looking closer at the mat chart it told us the sec interval of the flashing red light at MDR entrance, we were saved. A few minutes later I saw the correct flashing red light, then the green, we were home free. Now we werent in danger of losing our lives, worst case we would have had to drift around out there till morning then go in, but still it was dumb to do that. So maybe a docking loop could save the day for someone sometime, sometimes what I consider foo foo stuff turns out to be a life saver.
Mike

[aya16]

hey ski its fun stuff thats for sure. I swear any one that buys one has to promise to tell about someone going over board if it happens, especially mother in law or wife...On a serious note if it does happen the captain needs to take it out of gear and reverse slowly back, but make sure all forward speed is stopped immediately that might mean a good bunch of reverse throttle for a second, dont run over your wife. DONT PANNIC. Try very very hard not to laugh, she will kill you.
Mike

[SkiDeep2001]

Yea Mike, and I posted this as an aside as my striking the bow anchor of S/V Hespian was when I was going out and I was 50-100 feet from dock when got gusted without my CB. All I had on board was a 6 foot paddle and it was below deck. I was busy trying to use motor to keep me off her but it was a lost cause. If I had long docking pole in cockpit I might have made a stupid move like leaving helm and moving forward and then my stern most likely would have followed and I would have also hit M/V yacht beside the sailboat. In future I will make sure my CB is down at dock even if I think it's too shallow, I'll take that slight risk of dropping CB on bottom. Just out of curiosity, what happens when you drag CB on bottom in reverse My guess - Major Damage PS: just had a flash, what the heck am I going to use a 6 foot paddle for

[aya16]

damage for sure, but you know that centerboard or dagger board on the M can be lowered half way down too, thats still better than nothing. I really dont have an axe to grind with that docking loop, it just inspired me some...I have seen and been apart of some of the strangest stuff at ramps. Like the guy who had an inboard outboard at the dock and the other guy not related, holding his buddies boat behind the i/o, it was the dead of winter, the i/o trying to get his boat on the trailer and the engine being tilted all the way up, when I heard the owner tell the guy in his boat to start the engine and punch it to get it to climb the trailer, I already knew what was going to happen with that prop half out of the water. And it did, the poor guy holding the other boat got drenched, and it wasnt just a one second thing, it went on for a good 30 seconds. The guys face that got drenched was classic Ill never forget it, I could pick the guy out of a police lineup today If I had too. He wasnt mad, he didnt jump back he just stood there and took it and took it, and took it. Im at the rail above the ramp busting up laughing I couldnt help it. The guy giving the boat full throttle didnt even notice it, he was to concerned about getting the boat on the trailer.

This is the kind of real life stuff I was talking about when you have a guest aboard, the guest will do literally everything you say, the owner of the i/o above told his guest to start the engine and punch it to get it on his trailer, thats exactly what the guest did, no one told the guest to lower the engine first, and the poor guy that got wet, he was told to hold the boat till the owner goes and gets the trailer, no one told him that he was to close to the other boat, he couldnt let go of his buddies boat, he was told to hold it, he was trapped. So be careful what jobs you give to people on your boat, the guests want to do a good job and will do exactly what you say. So you better be clear, and say if you cant hold the boat let go of the thing before you fall in. I go through this all the time with Karen, I show her something and then sometime she tries it and its all wrong because she had to do it a little different, she never understood this, so I get the "thats not how you told me to do it before thing" Theres no constant, things change all the time, thats why the landing loop is so funny, because the possibility's are so great, anyone holding a line, loop or not, that isnt attached to the boat is some day going overboard, its just not as stable as someone on a dock holding a loose line and pulling a boat into the dock. The boat rolls, is slippery, and turns, add to that a guest or wife will do exactly what you say, we have a Kodak moment coming.

PS I used to ski on a 6 foot paddle, a hundred pounds ago......lets see you can use it for an emergency tiller for your engine and some duct tape, smack the water like chief brodie did to atract great whites, reach out with it to help your wife aboard when she falls off using the landing loop.....But at that point I would toss it in the water after shes aboard, as its perfect husband banger, and it doesnt fit well where she may want to put it in you.....
Mike