first actual sail. would like some feed back though.

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Sailor ja, I forgot to ask: does your boat have a chainplate/bracket mounted to the transom? Any apparent evidence of one that was removed (drilled holes, filler, outlines, etc)? It would probably be located just to starboard of the rudder. Also, have you checked for a bracket/mount on the mast? You can buy everything you need for a backstay at your local West Marine store; they should have all of the hardware and cable. Just get the measurement for the backstay, buy the cable, swage the ends, and mount it up. You could also add a turnbuckle at the lower end for adjustments. I'd install one on the boat before you do much sailing. I think MD Dunaway raised a good point in that last post.

As far as hanging the boom goes, my boat has a little "pigtail" cable (don't know if there's a nautical term for it) off the backstay with a clip. The "pigtail" is attached to the backstay with a cable clamp, and the other end clips/hooks onto the end of the boom. I don't know if it's original equipment or not...it's been on the boat since my grandfather had it, back in the 80's.

[johnnyonspot]

If the shrouds are swept back then my guess is there is no backstay. There is absolutely no reason to have swept back shrouds/spreaders is there is supposed to be a backstay, since having them swept back interferes with the main sail when heading downwind. Further, look at the masthead for a backstay connection point. If there is not one, then you have more evidence that the boat is not supposed to have a backstay. I would not worry about the spreaders straightening out and the mast falling. Just keep the shrouds nice and tight. The need only be a couple feet aft of the mast step in order to provide enough support for the mast. Make sure they are tight enough so that the leeward shroud never goes slack regardless of wind strength. You should have a couple degrees of aft mast rake too. Just not too much as it could cause wicked weather helm.

[ChockFullOnuts22]

It depends on how "swept back" the side shrouds are. On many boats, including Ventures, the upper and lower shrouds do sweep back a little from the mast so that the spreaders do rake slightly aft. On my boat, my chainplates are located aft of the mast step---but not as far aft as the beam.

Sailor ja, definitely check the mast head for a place to mount the backstay. If it's there, then you need one. Do you have any pictures of your boat with the mast up?

[MD Dunaway]

On my boat the spreaders do sweep back and it also has a back stay. The geometry is that the bulkheads where the shrouds attach are slightly aft of the mast step (refer to the picture you posted). I can see how the mast would stay up without the back stay but I wouldn't trust it. I doubt that it came from the factory that way. Refer to Chock's question. Is there any evidence that there was ever a chainplate bracket on the transom?

[johnnyonspot]

Why can't you just call the factory and ask them about it? I understand they can be helpful in this way. But yes, now that I think about it, my Mac 25 shrouds were a bit aft of the step. Had they not been, I could have used them to steady the mast when raising instead of baby stays.

[sailor ja]

Ok I have a few photo's for you all. a little larger than normal on the web so you can at least see something.
http://www.jjvphotography.com/Venture21 ... C_0252.JPG
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/mast2.jpg
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/mast.jpg
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/upright.jpg

I do not seem to have a place to attach a backstay on the mast nor do I have a chain plate like the one on the bow. There are though two places to attach something, they just aren't as tough as the one on the bow seems to be. but here is where they are located:
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/brackets1.jpg
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/fulltop.jpg don't mind this photo, this was the first time I ever put the boat in the water, I was taking it out in this photo, but we never even put the mast up because of the storm that hit us, so we tested the boat for major leaks before actually sailing it.
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/sailing.jpg
This next link is a close up of what the bracket actually looks like.
http://www.jjvphotography.com/mv21/upclose.jpg


I would like to get better pictures soon but I have only been sailing in the day time once lol, all the rest of the times were during the middle of the night.

[johnnyonspot]

That pad eye or loop on your port coaming is the anchor for your mainsheet line and has nothing to do with a backstay. It is far too weak and sits too far off center. It is where you tie your mainsheet before leading it up to your boom end for the first go-round through the boom block for the A-frame sheeting system. It was the same way on the Mac 25 I had and is the same on my Siren 17.

From what I can tell in the pictures, it does not look like your shrouds are far enough aft to supply sufficient aft support for the mast, but I could be wrong as there are no direct side shots that don't have a parallax error. Is there a slot-type opening at or near the top of your transom through which a steel strap would fit to anchor the backstay? It could be on-center or a little off center to one side or the other. Are there any signs of 3-4 bolt holes on the aft of the transom that might have been used to anchor the steel strap? The anchoring system for the backstay would have been very similar for the ones used for the shrouds, i.e., a steel strap secured on the inside of the hull by 3-4 through-hull bolts that goes up through the deck, or aft transom coaming in the case of the backstay, by way of a slot cut through the hull.

Does the PO know anything about this? I still say call the factory.

[sailor ja]

I have no evidence of a back stay existing on this boat from what I can see. The sidestays are a good deal aft of the mast. The mounting for the stays are a little farther back than the middle of the window and the mast is at the very front of the window to give some kind of idea of distance apart. I have rigged it this way 5 times now and it seems to be very sturdy. The sidestays have adjustment holes for adjusting the rake of the mast as well.

I just called the factory but they are closed today I am guessing, it being saturday and all. I emailed them asking them for information, so hopefully I will get a reply. to bad I cant just buy the new 26x .

back to a question on the locking bolt in the keel: I am assuming the re-enforced area that the keel raises up into is called the "trunk" correct? and the locking bolt should be the bolt above the pivot bolt near the bow/middle of the boat, correct? in order to lock the keel down from raising up back into the trunk abruptly and to make it self righting I need to take this bolt out, drop the keel and align the hole then once the hole is aligned and the keel is in the down position I insert the bolt, tighten it and proceed to sail, correct? Also when it comes to raising and lowering the keel you have to pull a lever and lock that in place that allows you to lower the keel but if you are not careful the winch will get you while lowering it. raising it is not a problem its just lowering it that is a pain.

to bad sailboats don't have haynes or chiltons manuals like cars and trucks do lol.

[Hamin' X]

This is from the manual for the V-21, V-22 and V-25:

On the 21 and 22 the backstay bent tang slips over the 3/8" bolt protruding from the rear of the masthead and is held firmly in place with a 3/8" locknut. On the 25, the backstay wire loop bolts (with a 1/4" x 1 1/2" bolt and locknut) between the rear holes in the masthead fitting. Make sure the nut is fully engaged in the threads.

Note: Macgregor is notorious for making running production changes and not updating their manuals, or website. Building boats without backstays is not new to Macgregor. Indeed, my old V-17 did not have a backstay. You might try calling Blue Water Yachts for the info you are looking for.

~Rich

[sailor ja]

I just called blue water yachts and the lady I spoke with dug up some old graphs and charts for the V21. They showed that the V21 had a backstay and that it attached to a bolt on the rear of the cockpit and she said the stay had a female end to attach to the bolt. Where the heck would that bolt be, because I see nothing on my boat for a backstay to attach to. We were both surprised she even had those graphs. But she did tell me to call the factory and speak to "Bill" on monday.

btw I am going to get some more detailed photo's today.

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Sailor ja, you are correct on the lockdown bolt. Do not use it near shallow water, though.

Blue Water Yachts has been helpful with me, too. Looking at your pictures, I can't see any evidence of a backstay having once been there, by what I see of your transom area in the pictures. Has the topside ever been repainted, or had repair work done? I would really need to see a closeup of the top of the mast, on the rear edge.

Check out the pictures in this old add. There's a U-bolt on top of the transom, just off center, where the backstay adjuster attaches. I have this setup on my 2-22 as well. And in the picture above that one, you can see the tang at the top of the mast where the upper end of the backstay attaches. http://www.sailingtexas.com/sventure21f.html

In searching for pictures on Google images, there was only 1 V21 that I found that did not have a backstay. It was also on the Sailing Texas site. However, that boat did still have a U-bolt on the stern... http://www.sailingtexas.com/sventure21105.html


PS-- If you don't like the ratchet winch, you can always replace it with a brake winch. A brake winch can be had for between $60-$85, as I've seen around the internet. No more lowering troubles. No more levers.

[sailor ja]

Ok I see that some of the v21's have spreaders and four sidestays? I wonder if my boat was just the bottom of the line with no options. So far the only place I have sailed is lake chesdin and I have no idea how deep it is or where it becomes shallow, the marina owners told me that if I stay off the shoreline a good bit then the lake is well deeper than 40' . so far I have had no problems but I also was allowing the keel to rest of the bolt. I really need to get a depth finder.

here are all of the photo's of my boat compiled into an album. if you go to the upclose folder you will find detailed photo's of parts on the boat. http://www.jjvphotography.com/MACv21/album

There could have been more parts to this boat but one can only imagine. I bought the boat from a friend of a friend who's grandfather past away and it was his boat since 73'. I was told that the boat had been repainted inside and the hull had been painted as well. I do not believe the deck or transom has ever been painted as it still has the original Venture sticker on it. also on the top of the mast I believe there is a antenna connection rod but I am not sure if that is for that or not. there is also a coaxial cable coming out of the mast that I am assuming leads to that connector at the top of the mast. but anyways here are the photos.

I would like to change everything on the boat one day. I have a good deal of work this winter to do on it. so far this is what I have done to it.
-new bow light
-added a stern light
-bought a new turn buckle for the frontstay
-rewired the boat and put a new electrical box in it
-bought a water pump for it and rigged it like a vacuum with hoses in and out, just incase.
-rigged new UV protected rope for the main sail.
- patched the jib and replaced all of the leather and grommets


btw any idea where to get the rubber spacers that are used on all the bolts that deal with the keel and the cable guides?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

My V21 had a backstay that attached on the starboard side of the transom. You can see it in this picture just aft of the mainsheet and topping lift.



Mine did not have spreaders. It did have a pair of side stays on each side. It looks to me like you only have the lower stays and are missing the uppers. They both attached to the same chainplates that are mid window with separate turnbuckles.



My headstay went to the full top of the mast as did the backstay and the upper side stays. I actually used a 26x jib as a perfect genoa on the V21. It hoisted all the way to the top of the mast.

The eye straps in your picture are for the main sheet, they are not strong enough for attaching a backstay.

It seems like my headstay also attached further forward on the bow.



I did add an over center lever at the bow that made it easier to tension the rig.

http://home.comcast.net/~duane.dunn/windsong.htm

[johnnyonspot]

btw any idea where to get the rubber spacers that are used on all the bolts that deal with the keel and the cable guides?

Best guess is Bluewater Yachts.

[johnnyonspot]

The mast was so light there was no need for any raising equipment. I did add an over center lever at the bow that made it easier to tension the rig.

Duane, what is an over center lever?