Steering failing in F8-9

[r.fairman]

I do not wish to cause offence, or if others on this forum feel as i do, but perhaps you should rename your boat Reckless Two. Your photos show a Mac overpressed and sailing outside its design limits. You have been reprimanded by Southhampton Harbour control and been towed out of danger across a clearly marked commercial shipping lane. I understand there was a small craft warning issued by the coastguard on the day in question Your photos show another yacht that you seem to have been a crew on that lost its mast racing in adverse conditions and another warning by the Royal National Lifeboat Association. I hope no more innocent lives are risked by your actions.

[magnetic]

Killjoy!

[I hate Southampton Water anyhow - it's very busy with some massive craft, it's as ugly as hull*, and there is all manner of ironwork to avoid all the way down to the Hamble. Real Men get shipwrecked on the Bramble Bank or cutting the corner on the Needles! ]

* There is that d@mned Auto-Censor again - try typing in even mild profanities referring to Hades and it translates it into the bottom of a boat

[Kelly Hanson East]

From reading his blogs I have a very good sense that Bjorn is an excellent sailor and understands the limits of himself, his boat, and the weather far better than I and many others.

I understand my limits and would not be out in the weather that he references, but it is invaluable to learn what the limit of this boat really is. There is a lot of speculation about rudder strength and what will break, but an actual field test is really the ultimate in good info.

I dont want to encourage people to take risks either, but I am really glad there are a few people (Bjorn, Leon, and others) who can push the limits and report back here.

To be specific, my life goal is to not get caught out in bad weather, but if I do get caught in an F6, thanks to Bjorns post, I will know that the boat can do it, watch the rudders .... that information is really valuable.

[waternwaves]

F6 25 kts is not impossible or necessarily unsafe in a mac, even by oneself.

Its kind of nice to get the dang thing moving. Especially since that particular location was somewhat protected by land, he was able to play in the wind with less than the normal associated waves of an open water location.

SCA over here means lets go sailing

[DaveB]

Blue Water Sailing is not for a Mac. not even a bare pole mast in a 35 knot gust, 40 knots wind on beam you are going to do the 90-180 0r 360 degree dance if waves are right.
That sail should have been reefed all the way to about 15 sq ft. headsail and still doing 6 knots or more.(fortunate for you wind was aft the beam)
I have been a previous Bluewater sailer and sailed many thousands miles in my Blue water 35 Alberg and you don't mix apples with oranges with boats like the Mac.
I have seen the Vidios of Macgregor web of the Mac.X and M and they are made to belive Mac's can go thru 30-40 knot winds. Don't anyone belive this and belive this boat is only a Coastal Cruiser capiable to withstands winds and waves prudent to the skippers knowledge and the boats structual capibilities.
Even with my Knowledge of 40 yrs I will only cruise if winds are below 20 knots, if weather changes (and it does often) I will bunker down to a anchorage and ride it out. (don't worry about showing up for work) Call your boss and tell them to come get you or give you the next day or two off.
Dave

As a few have commented on our avatar, here is the full pic.


This was our 3rd or 4th venture out with our new mac. Brilliant. Hit 9.4Kts, steady F8 gusting 9. However it was more than the steering could take so the finale of the trip ended in reprimands from the Southampton harbour master along the lines of 'boats this size shouldn't be out in winds this big'. We also had a tow across a major shipping lane by a coastguard patrol who were wandering by looking for some excersize.
As newbies we had yet to learn about being overly scared. The wife did complain that making tea was rather irkesome, what with it spilling around and being blown out of the mug. She's also insisted that I install some form of heating/drying facility as she finds wet clothing rather disagreeable. As well as resolving the confounded steering issues. Each previous venture had resulted in a pin or bracket failing, inevitably as the wind got to about F6. Thankfully she held a stiff upper lip and shall continue in the capacity of first officer. The helm is now fit for storms so I've got a galley to build. I'll post the mods as they evolve.. This is a great site, alot of skill and knowledge. I suppose one of the things with a mac is that in many ways you get a blank canvas.

For some of the other shots I have a makeshift collection on facebook for those that may be interested...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=9 ... 0b5dde1adf

Best wishes for the new year all round.

Björn & Mandy Sjöling, Restless UK

[waternwaves]

I would have to politely disagree.

an experienced sailor, in or out of a mac should be able to handle a boat in 20 kt winds

and with all the sails down and just a hair of genny unrolled my boat does not fall over in 40 kt gusts. it is heeled, but I am reefed as necessary, and angled into 30 kt wind and I can still tack, rather quickly also.

[DaveB]

You must be in a Fresh water pond were mountains protect you from gusts or sailing in a Mac. on simulation computer program.
I repeat..Mac's are not Blue Water Sailing Boats!!! If you are a experanced Sailor and want to get the rail down in coastal waters...go for it , but don't even try to tell Mac. owners this boat can do offshore sailing unless they rig the boat to offshore standards and even if they do it's still not a Blue water Sailboat as Seas I been thru would split the boat in two and even crush the hull between waves.
I have seen what 40 ft. waves does and even the most best built offshore blue water built boat will pound and twist and put the most forces mother nature has on your boat.
Mac's are strickly Coastal cruisers..most dareing is doing a Bahamia cruise for 4 weeks or more leaving the SE. FL coast to West End or S. Bahamas banks or Abaco's or furter S. All it takes is for that 52 mile crossing accross the Gulf stream and hope that it will be calm.
15 knots of wind from the N. in the gulf stream will produce a lively 6 ft close togeather chop against the northern moveing 3 knot current.
20 knot wind from N. will turn a blue water 45 fter Sailboat in a sea crossing they will never forget.
In 1995 I went to a Boat show in St. Pete, FL. and they had this brand new Mac.X and I wouldn't even go aboard after learning it had a water ballest for a keel ballest.
2006 I finally looked into the water ballest and bought a a used one in 2008.
Only reason I bought was...it could be beached level, can be easy trailer sailed and I could stand up under the hatch.
I still think the layout was for a migit and can be much improved for a 6 ft. adult.(what happens when a 5-6 ft. adult designs a sailboat..ya Roger.

I know this boats limits and would perfer to take my previous Compac 19 or Potter 19 to do offshore than this one.
Remember, it only takes once to get caught in a storm or less and be battered in a boat that can't take it or even if it does you can't because you are so worried your boat is going to fall apart as you do....get my drift?
Dead Sailors can't tell their stories, only live ones.
Dave

I would have to politely disagree.

an experienced sailor, in or out of a mac should be able to handle a boat in 20 kt winds

and with all the sails down and just a hair of genny unrolled my boat does not fall over in 40 kt gusts. it is heeled, but I am reefed as necessary, and angled into 30 kt wind and I can still tack, rather quickly also.

[TexasDan40]

Well said Dave B.
I wouldn't put my in the North Sea...during any time of the year. I actually sailed a 38' Westerly across the Gulf of Mexico in 1994...got hit 1st night out by a northern front moving through. It was scarey and exciting; 10-15' seas, 30-50 mph winds...and definately beyond a Mac.

Te

[magnetic]

My previous comment was a little lighthearted. This one is more to the point.

Can we please maintain a degree of perspective here? "Bluewater" this, "Bluewater" that... we are talking about Southampton Water here, which is significantly more sheletered and a lot smaller than many lakes and believe me, the water certainly is not in any sense "blue"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton_Water

This emphatically NOT the North Sea - nor any other Sea for that matter - it is a sunken river valley 11 miles long and nowhere more than 2 miles wide. The greatest danger - and it is a very real danger indeed - is the volume, size and nature of traffic through the area - including 40kt commercial catamarans and some of the largest container and cruise ships on the planet (severely constrained by their draft).

I kept a Beneteau 343 for 18 months at the the bottom end of Southampton Water - Port Hamble Marina - and the only possible reasons I would not have sailed there in a F7 are a) I am an inexperienced wimp and b) there are far more interesting places to sail to the South, East or West. The area is extremely busy and therefore tedious to sail - but Southampton VTS and the Harbourmaster are extremely active and vigilant, and it is extremely rare to hear of significant incidents involving recreational yachts (of which there are many, albeit mostly just transiting through).

I too would not take my (or indeed my Beneteau) out in F7-8 or in "Bluewater", but that is an entirely personal decision; in fact, I believe that, in the right hands, either boat is entirely capable of handling such conditions. However, I am equally sure that 99% of Mac owners do not have any realistic aspiration to do so - we are dilettante recreational sailors for whom a passage of 100 or so miles across a lake or along a coastline is exactly why we bought a Mac in the first place. Our capabilities and the boat's capabilities are entirely distinct factors, and what failed in this instance wasn't the boat being overpowered or the skipper losing control, but the steering jamming (which we are told is a frequent occurrence, and whichn Bjorn has clearly now addressed as a consequence, passing the benefit of his experience on to the rest of us).

As has been pointed out above, posting accounts of how Mac's have survived extreme conditions is unlikely to encourage many of us to deliberately seek to go out in F7 's or "Bluewater" - it is merely comforting to know that the boat is capable of surviving in these circumstances. There are of course sea conditions which would sink any boat, and any stretch of water is potentially lethal - even your bathtub. The key is surely to keep a sense of proportion and know your own limits - which in my case at least means "stay inside the comfort zone".

So, to end as I began, - Killjoy!

[Hamin' X]

Just to add to the point: There are very few recreational sailors that I would want to be out in F-7, or higher winds with, Mac, or not. I was out on Monterey Bay on a Beneteau 361, in F-8 winds with 20+ ft. seas. Trust me, it could get dangerous in a hurry if you make a mistake. By the way, when sailing the Pacific out of Santa Cruz, Small Craft Advisories are the norm. I think that the skipper is more important than the boat.

~Rich

[K9Kampers]

* There is that d@mned Auto-Censor again - try typing in even mild profanities referring to Hades and it translates it into the bottom of a boat

heIIo... huII... heII - oh! What ever are you talking about?! Maybe it senses the context the word is used in?!!

[restless]

I hope no more innocent lives are risked by your actions.

A statement like that is what I'd call reckless...
Drawing conclusions based on such scant evidence and then pontificating in such strong terms is embarrassing to the point of social suicide!
One can only conclude that this is a reflection of your world. Sounds like a lonely and scary place.
This sort of anger/unresolved frustration is clear proof that ignorance is not bliss.
An easy way an ego can give itself some sense of self worth is by inventing excuses to get on its high horse and proclaim its superiority over others. Ironicaly this is utterly self defeating as the individual blindly continues with its unpleasant rhetoric, further alienating itself from the attention it so craves. (or indulging itself in negative attention as second best option) And so the circle goes on...

Now what is all this lecturing about North Sea and Blue water sailing?? I can't see in my original post anything that tells folk to go blasting out into severe weather offshore... so what is all this about? Perhaps you should start a new thread 'Listen to me preaching the obvious'

For the record, Mrs & I in this part of the world (Portland to Christchurch) find F4-5 as perfect sailing weather,(OBVIOUSLY factoring in heading, bearing and tide) F6 acceptable on a run though beating into is just not fun. We always have a plan B and often a C and will happily sit out uncomfortable conditions swapping tales with other yachties in a marina.

Personaly I really enjoy the challenge at the limits, and went out in the bay with a similar friend on my 2nd launch of macownership in a healthy F5.. and put all the sails up. We played and got thrown about and heeled like crazy and broached frequently and looked like idiots I expect. Then we trimmed and tuned and the boat flew. Broke a rudder bracket and came home with alot of knowledge on macstability and abilty. I like things that break in safe places.. our mac has been kicked about hard so if I need to go through a heavy tidal race or a sudden adverse wind situation I don't have to fill my pants with fear when I have precious Mrs cargo onboard.

Fact. The human brain can not be relied on to make sound judgements when flooded with doubts and fears. Indecision and dithering has cost the human race countless lives.

We've had our mac for 6 months and have had some fantastic times, as well as a few hairy moments!
Scariest for me was mooring amongst mega yachts in a stiff cross breeze after our rudder-bracket-to-bow-pin broke!

BTW this was a mac rally event. Our first one too.
I've also just been nominated as secretary for the uk macg association.

Wreckless Too

[magnetic]

..... what he just said.......

[Highlander]

Magnetic said , I quote
As has been pointed out above, posting accounts of how Mac's have survived extreme conditions is unlikely to encourage many of us to deliberately seek to go out in F7 's or "Bluewater" - it is merely comforting to know that the boat is capable of surviving in these circumstances

Oh Yeh ! I'm not so sure about that Now you've got myself , Leon & Beene just itching to get out there & prove you wrong



J
PS. As for the rest of you's to each his own ! so be nice to each other & remember the old saying " Try It You'll Like It " & remember everyone has their own fear level just because some of us have a higher level of fear does not make us a wimp. I have a very low level of fear to the point I have been told I am fearless of nothing to the point of wrecklessness but i do not consider myself a Hero "just a little Crazy " perhaps . But always remember to respect all of your onboard crews fear levels so as to avoid any bad situations you do not want an out of control crew member getting frantic on you & creating a bad situation that could turn out to be embarssing to all , as the Skipper of your boat it is your responsibility to respect all crew members wishes & fears ! same goes for any boat that is out cruising with you ,if the weather gets bad & they decide to head back to the neartest port respect their decission do not try to goad them to keep going on to the next port unless your sure their making a bad decission out of fear ! & if they ask you to help "escort" them to the nearest port for safety you should respectfully do so without puting your own boat & crew in jepardy of coarse
Hear I am ranting on again !!

J

[Solitario]

All very interesting!
Interestingly, the sea keeps the Mac, interesting as it is restless daring, and interesting analysis of the right of Mr. Dave B, interesting questions forum ... congratulations.
Roberto.