Tether to Windward or Leeward in Cockpit?

[Gary N]

Our 26X is fitted with a harness point in the center of the companionway near the floor. Not sure if this is a standard fitting but it is a convenient place to clip onto.

Our problem is what to clip onto when you have to go forward to the mast or front deck. I haven't tried it yet but I have been thinking about running a line from the same harness point in the cockpit, over the doorway and cabin roof to the foot of the mast. Not ideal because it will get in the way of the companionway but otherwise should do the job.

[Catigale]

Thats not a standard thing from the factory Gary

I run a 1/2 inch dock line from the pedestal up to a front cleat with a turn around the mast. It does mean you have to unclip/reclip to get forward but Im not out in Force 8 conditions, its safety so I cant go off when it is just me and the kids.

[sbods]

Had fun just returning back to Southampton from the Hamble on Sunday. 28 knot winds with gusts over 40.
Had 2 new crew on board and had a blast!

Yep, in normal conditions I probably - no definitely would not have gone out but it was one of the things....time constraints etc.

Head on wind and tide at the river entrance saw the green stuff coming straight over the bow and into the face of the helm... yours truely - to everyone's enjoyment (perhaps except mine!)

Once turning to starboard up Southampton Water things settled a little with a following tide and wind off the port quarter.
Motoring back at 7Kts (daggers down, board up and half balast) was no problem.

The reason for the post? Well I also remember a trip I had last year coming from Poole to Southampton. Spring tide, through the Needles, Wind 18Kts on a broad reach, tide starboard quarter at 5Kts. Sailing full suite (All boards down, full ballast) at 11Kts (SOG) and it felt as safe as houses. My point? Unusual things happen in unusual places. I do not knock anyone's experiences... heck, I hope that I learn from them!!

So, as to where to clip on? Personally the high side... never have been one for dragging along as a "dope on a rope"!! Keep in the cockpit and you have a chance of controlling the situation. I subscribe to the three point harness.. whilst moving one you are still safe but for most in the conditions that we take our MACs out in there is little call for them.

My advice is, if you want to wear it, do so. Just like a Life jacket as the RNLI say... "Useless unless worn" - why have one if you do not use it?
S

[DaveB]

Darry,
Since you have some offshore experance and read over 200 books than you must have a very Large collection of Books that Includes( Dutton's Navigation and Piloting,and American Practical Navigator Vol. 1&2 or just read the simple but informant book of Chapman) you should know how to set up life Jack lines and lines you run fore and aft to attach your Safety Harness to. Those are ment for Blue Water Cruisers or Raceing Boats.
If you want to restrict yourself to a Boat that is ment for Inshore Coastal Cruiseing and do things that require a Offshore Boat, than you are on your own .
I don't care how Rodger does his Vidio in 35 -40 Knots of Wind as this is a very poor example on what the Mac. Can do and for only breef moment in 1/2 hr sailing and getting just the right Image is not true Sailing in a Mac. and is so Ill underminded .
I repeat, these boats are Coastal Cruisers and don't ever think they can do Blue Water Sailing .Coastal Inlets from Pacific or Atlantic in anything over 15 Knots can be dangerous and if you mix a out going current with a incomeing wind.
Be Happy or get a fixed keel boat for doing what you want.
I still have second doubts of doing a Bahama trip as I already new one Mac.S that was dismasted and another MacX that also was dismasted at ramp same day I launched in Homestead,FL. I also know if I get slammed in heavy weather the last place I want to be on is a Mac.X or M.
I have spent 6 mo. sailing most the Bahamas on my Blue water Sailboat.
Don't for one second think a Mac. is built for any type of winds over 30 knots , these boats can easy holed in a strong current or just sailing to windward and make contact with a floating log or any object that can penatrate the hull floating.
Bottom Line is, you wouldn't be asking these Questions if you had the experance, and if you did have you would have already figuared how to set up the Life lines supports and attachments for the Mac.
Sorry for my way of expressing the strong Point but I am usually direct.
I am sure you can find your Solition and good luck.
Fair Winds,

Dave

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Darry's IS doing inshore coastal cruising. He was within miles of his dock in one of the upper northeast corners of the protected waters of the Pacific Northwest. He is over a hundred miles away from the entrance to the Strait of Juan De Fu ca and the open Pacific Ocean. He is coastal cruising in a boat that is more than up to the conditions that ARE typical in these protected waters.

I think this forum is the exactly correct place to ask these questions about these boats no matter what your experience level is. The notion that experienced people know everything and can't learn new tricks is exactly what gets people into trouble everyday. The attitude that experienced people should only spout wisdom instead of asking questions is completely ridiculous.

I've been cruising the Pacific Northwest waters for over 15 years often in the same conditions described. Even so I have never put Jack lines on my boat and am very interested in reading any and all suggestions from people with all experience levels as to how they have specifically done this on a Mac. It is a very different boat to install these on than the typical cruiser described in most texts which has side decks along which lines can be run. I have the PFD/Harness, I have the tether, and some day I might be out single handing and want to set up a line.

I'd love to see more posts from people about the question asked rather than wasted posts claiming disbelief in the facts presented or incorrect advice that a Mac shouldn't be out in the conditions described.

The link provided early on in a response was great and really makes you think about what value a tether may have. Without a doubt any tether I do implement will be very short so it confines me to the deck. It also reinforces my view that as long as someone else is on board I never want to be tethered to the boat. I'll take my chances that they will come back and pick me up.

[Wind Chime]

I like the idea that the PO of Gary N's boat did. Put a clip point at the bottom of the pedestal.

I spent a week onboard a 42 foot boat that had a clip point in the same spot, and I used it when on night watch. I thought about installing one there on our X, but am not sure if the fibreglass pedestal is strong enough there, even with a backing plate?

My other concern I find is getting out of the cockpit, to go on deck. As you leave the cockpit beside the dodger. There are no real strong handholds. On larger boats with metal dodger frames there is a grab rail as part of the frame. We have the Blue Water Yachts aluminum one, and I end up grabbing that sometimes but it's not very sturdy and not designed for that.

I am certainly thinking that a center line may be the way to go on deck?
My jack-lines now run along the gunwale edge on both sides, from the bow cleats through the stations beside the winches, then back to secure on the stern cleats. If I did go over from on deck, I would most certainly be in the water.


p.s.
... for those that have been following this thread, I do have the books Dave mentioned and they are excellent refference and well worth having in your nautical library. Those being; Dutton's Navigation and Piloting; American Practical Navigator Vol. 1&2; Chapmans Piloting and Seamanship. Some others that I also have on this topic and are worth having are; Offshore Cruising Encyclopaedia (Dashew); Single Handed Cruising and Sailing (Mulville); Small Craft Piloting & Coastal Navigation (Saunders); Yachtsman's Emergency Handbook (Hearst); Safety and Survival at Sea (Lee); Passage Making (Campbell); Cruising Fundamentals (ASA); and Sensible Cruising (the Thoreau Approach).

[Gary N]

Once turning to starboard up Southampton Water things settled a little with a following tide and wind off the port quarter.
Motoring back at 7Kts (daggers down, board up and half balast) was no problem.

Half ballast is IMO very dangerous because the weight will shift causing all sorts of problems. A few years ago a Mac was lost (turned turtle) here off the coast near Barry in South Wales and according to one of the lifeboat men involved in that incident, it was because the ballast was not full.

Here is a video shot further down the coast from where we sail, of a 27' boat, that shows a pretty typical day once the wind gets up. The wind looks about 15kts to me. A Mac in this situation with a half filled tank would not survive the first swell. Even with a full ballast a Mac would find these conditions challenging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07CS5_Vrub4

[DaveB]

Duane,
You mentioned in previous post the seas can build to 6 ft., Darry said he was surfing down waves at 13.2 knots and climbing back side at 4 knots. (those waves have to be very large and probably short in distance breaking at tops) to get that type of action.
Somehow the Picture isn't all there. Coastal Cruiseing in your area with currents you mentioned in shoal areas would have much more effect on a Mac. than cruiseing the open Seas.
The main thing to learn is knowing your boats capibilities without over Powering/Sailing, and your own mind and experance to prevent over stress or Fatigue.
I would never object to anyone wearing a Safty Harness and Attachment points for Tethers on any boat in any condition.
Coastal Conditions can be far worce than being out at Sea if you are to far from Landfall to make Port if a Storm is Brewing.
Personally I would have a Sea Anchor ready to deplore in your area just for fast backup.
Do you have any Questions?
Dave

Darry's IS doing inshore coastal cruising. He was within miles of his dock in one of the upper northeast corners of the protected waters of the Pacific Northwest. He is over a hundred miles away from the entrance to the Strait of Juan De Fu ca and the open Pacific Ocean. He is coastal cruising in a boat that is more than up to the conditions that ARE typical in these protected waters.

I think this forum is the exactly correct place to ask these questions about these boats no matter what your experience level is. The notion that experienced people know everything and can't learn new tricks is exactly what gets people into trouble everyday. The attitude that experienced people should only spout wisdom instead of asking questions is completely ridiculous.

I've been cruising the Pacific Northwest waters for over 15 years often in the same conditions described. Even so I have never put Jack lines on my boat and am very interested in reading any and all suggestions from people with all experience levels as to how they have specifically done this on a Mac. It is a very different boat to install these on than the typical cruiser described in most texts which has side decks along which lines can be run. I have the PFD/Harness, I have the tether, and some day I might be out single handing and want to set up a line.

I'd love to see more posts from people about the question asked rather than wasted posts claiming disbelief in the facts presented or incorrect advice that a Mac shouldn't be out in the conditions described.

The link provided early on in a response was great and really makes you think about what value a tether may have. Without a doubt any tether I do implement will be very short so it confines me to the deck. It also reinforces my view that as long as someone else is on board I never want to be tethered to the boat. I'll take my chances that they will come back and pick me up.

[The Mutt]

I'm a bit complacent when it comes to using a harness, must be from spending too much time racing catamarans, while racing you spend all your time moving quickly holding on all the time and using the trapeze line.

One thing I always use my PFD while under sail, all who sail with us must as well, or GET OFF the boat, no exceptions.

Glenn

[Wind Chime]

Dave,

I do have a Sea-Anchor attached to my transom and ready to deploy.

I could not use it on this day in the bay. This bay is home to the Crescent Beach commercial crabbing fleet. Commercial lines and floats are everywhere. The good news was there were no whales on this day. I have had three Gray Whale encounters in the bay since May, and while going out the day before I passed by a pod of 7 Killer Whales off the point.

I gave an instructional "Foul Weather" training session to new club members this past spring, and showed members some heavy weather sailing techniques including; "when and how to deploy my Sea-Anchor".

Darry Major
Commodore, MYCBC
http://www.mycbc.ca
"Sail Safe, and Leave Only Wake"

[DaveB]

Darry,
If you have a three point attachment on a cone shape Sea Anchor if a crab bouy hits it chances are it is going to force the Cone sideways and release it, if you have a trip line I would not use it as the bouy will foul on it.
Getting back to your original Post . I would put jack lines both Port and Starboard and instead of running them straight have them go around base of mast. Meaning tie off at stearn starboard cleat and go around mast and hook up at bow Starboard Cleat, do same on Port side.
This will get you all the way to Bow without unhooking it with one Teether,the second teether line can be hooked on Port jack line but must be detached an rehooked in front of mast. The mast will support the jack line half way and keep them in center of boat so your teether line can be much shorter.
There is no set of rules I am aware of in clipping to Windward or Leeward, I always cliped on both as cocpit was completely under water as I broke thru 40 ft. seas with 6 ft. breakers on top. You float, but you are attached and usually landed on cockpit seat.
A Mac. has very high freeboard and ballest is very high, doing a 90 degree knockdown is very possable and haveing the windward teether attached could add to a possable 180 degree by adding your body weight. These boats also can take on water very fast thru hatches and add to a 180 degree and the more it is under water in seconds could equal or exceed the Ballest weight.
Usually you will Broach if going 90Degrees and the following seas will help you do the 180.
Haveing quick release at teethers on your Safty Harness is a must.
Dave

Dave,

I do have a Sea-Anchor attached to my transom and ready to deploy.

I could not use it on this day in the bay. This bay is home to the Crescent Beach commercial crabbing fleet. Commercial lines and floats are everywhere. The good news was there were no whales on this day. I have had three Gray Whale encounters in the bay since May, and while going out the day before I passed by a pod of 7 Killer Whales off the point.

I gave an instructional "Foul Weather" training session to new club members this past spring, and showed members some heavy weather sailing techniques including; "when and how to deploy my Sea-Anchor".

Darry Major
Commodore, MYCBC
http://www.mycbc.ca
"Sail Safe, and Leave Only Wake"

[sbods]

Once turning to starboard up Southampton Water things settled a little with a following tide and wind off the port quarter.
Motoring back at 7Kts (daggers down, board up and half balast) was no problem.

Half ballast is IMO very dangerous because the weight will shift causing all sorts of problems. A few years ago a Mac was lost (turned turtle) here off the coast near Barry in South Wales and according to one of the lifeboat men involved in that incident, it was because the ballast was not full.

Here is a video shot further down the coast from where we sail, of a 27' boat, that shows a pretty typical day once the wind gets up. The wind looks about 15kts to me. A Mac in this situation with a half filled tank would not survive the first swell. Even with a full ballast a Mac would find these conditions challenging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07CS5_Vrub4

Hi Gary - I agree and sailing with half balast can indeed be very dangerous particularly in borderline situations as the angle of heel easily becomes upset by the weight transference of the moving balast. This can effectively wipe out a huge chunk of the AVS (I'm no mathmatician, and I dare say that someone on the site may be able to give us figures but logic is logic...)

With regards to my passage;

a. I was under motor not sail
b. The conditions lightened as I turned to starboard up the relatively sheltered Southampton water
c. The wind and tide combination meant that I was not sailing in the conditions that are shown in your video clip
d. By having no weight or drive aloft the reduced weight in the balast still acted to hold the boat down against much lower upper forces
e. Slamming was reduced as the boat was carring more weight in turn making the passage that more comfortable - albeit less economical (not the first thing on my mind in the circumstances!)

Plus my main point was where the original poster of the thread reported his experience, I would not look to find fault with his reminicense.... stranger things do happen at sea and just because one person has not seen or encountered it, it does not mean that it did not happen.

As the philosopher George Berkeley writes ""If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_ ... n_a_forest