Main halyard aft - 26M

[Paul S]

Paul,

My M was rigged by Supersport Marine. The main halyard system is actually quite simple. There is a D shackle attaching a small block to a hole about 2.5 inches back from the front of the vertical portion of the mast base plate. This is on the starboard side. Another cheek block is stacked on top of the dagger board cheek block (or maybe it's a dual cheek block). The halyard runs through this block to a rope clutch accesible from the cockpit. It seems to work fine. Make sure the bolt that holds the mast base has the head towards the pulley so it won't catch on the pulley.

BB

So they did not use a uplead block or a stand up (spring loaded) block for the base? When not in use..does it just flop around the deck?

Where did they put the rope clutch? what kind? Do you like it?

You wouldn't have any pictures of the setup?

Paul

[baldbaby2000]

Paul,
The block just flops around if there's no halyard tension but I don't see that as a problem. The clutch is forward of the winch so the winch can be used. It's probably not the optimal angle because it is mounted without any wedge but the winch is definitely usable on the halyard.
I've wondered about the downward force on the mast maybe making automatic rotation a little more difficult in light winds. Next time I have the boat out I'll cleat the halyard to the mast cleat and see if it behaves differently. I'm not saying what I have doesn't work well but I'm always looking for better ways.
I'll try to get some pictures to show the setup.

BB

[Paul S]

Paul,
The block just flops around if there's no halyard tension but I don't see that as a problem. The clutch is forward of the winch so the winch can be used. It's probably not the optimal angle because it is mounted without any wedge but the winch is definitely usable on the halyard.
I've wondered about the downward force on the mast maybe making automatic rotation a little more difficult in light winds. Next time I have the boat out I'll cleat the halyard to the mast cleat and see if it behaves differently. I'm not saying what I have doesn't work well but I'm always looking for better ways.
I'll try to get some pictures to show the setup.

BB

Thanks.

It is good to see what is installed...and how well that installation works...and what the user would change about the setup.

So it seems like the standard block works well for the mast base. The only thing I would think about the block flopping on the deck is potential scratches as the boat is trailered as the block moves on the deck. I might use a standup block instead. Same idea.

Paul

[Andy26M]

On my M:

I have a hinged fairlead block mounted on the base of the mast itself. The halyard is led down through that block and across to a cheek block on the lifleline stanchion, and from there aft to a rope clutch. If you locate the fairlead block on the base of the mast correctly, the mast still rotates freely - the only time it doesn't is in light wind if you have the halyard too tight.

Here is a link - what I have is similar to the schaeffer 300-32 pictured:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... storeNum=2

My rope clutch is not forward of the winch because I have never needed the winch to get my main properly hoisted ( I do have to head up and let the main luff in order to tighten it, though). By the time the wind gets so strong that I cannot get the luff properly trimmed just using body weight, it is time to put in a reef so the point is moot.

My boat is under cover right now so I won't be able to take a picture for a while yet.

- AndyS

[Chip Hindes]

the mast still rotates freely - the only time it doesn't is in light wind if you have the halyard too tight...By the time the wind gets so strong that I cannot get the luff properly trimmed just using body weight, it is time to put in a reef so the point is moot.

Yours is the setup I commented on earlier wherein the rotation is restricted by the led aft rig. It's not the halyard being too tight that prevents the mast from rotating freely. Even if fairly loose, when the halyard is tensioned in this fashion, the mast is essentially spring loaded to remain in a neutral position; it can't rotate in either direction from neutral without also adding more tension to the halyard, so it doesn't. Obviously, higher winds = higher forces so it is able to overcome the halyard tension and rotate anyway.

It's really a separate subject, but there's little chance you can get the halyard too tight with only body weight. Every sailing book I've ever read (all two of them at least ) tells you that the main halyard should be really tight, but in fact, most people don't put enough tension on it. For those boats which don't have the halyard led aft, I believe it's the owner's manual that suggests the truckers' hitch. That gives you approximately body weight times two. Others suggest "milking" the halyard by grabbing it as far up as you can reach and pulling it out horizontally with the end snubbed on the cleat. Some boats not much larger than ours have a winch mounted right on the mast for this purpose.

For those with the halyard led aft, it's beneficial to use the winch for that last bit of halyard tension. I raise the sail by hand as far as it goes easily, then three turns on the winch and a good crank, where the rope clutch holds it.

Certainly it's up to you. If you moved your turning block from the mast base to the deck, you would eliminate the spring affect which tries to hold the mast in its neutral position, and the rotating mast would work as well in light winds as in not so light.

[Paul S]

the mast still rotates freely - the only time it doesn't is in light wind if you have the halyard too tight...By the time the wind gets so strong that I cannot get the luff properly trimmed just using body weight, it is time to put in a reef so the point is moot.

Certainly it's up to you. If you moved your turning block from the mast base to the deck, you would eliminate the spring affect which tries to hold the mast in its neutral position, and the rotating mast would work as well in light winds as in not so light.

How far from the mast would you recommend to mount the block? I figured mouting the block to the mast wouldn't be a great idea. I was thinking this Uplead or something like this style standup block mounted on the deck

I found this helpful Harken website. Trying to apply it to our M . Seems like an easy setup. But the rotating mast seems to complicate things. Plus I don't want it to look like it was added on, want it to look decent and professional. I want to upgrade/change the daggerboard handling as well at the same time. So I might get 2 rope clutches to match (instead of the regular cleat for the dagger line)

Should the rope clutches be mounted in front of the winch (near existing cleat) in order to use it?

Paul

[Chip Hindes]

My recommendation would be the first one, the upright lead block, mounted on the deck as close to the mast as you can get it without actually having the mast hit it when it rotates. System one on the Harken website is exactly what you want, with the deck mounted block as in picture A. You can get these upright blocks hinged at the base so they fold flat when not under load, and that would work fine as well, but they're also considerably more expensive; it's hard to tell from pictures but they might raise the line up a tad higher off the deck, too.

Certainly the second "swivel block with deckplate" would work, but it is designed for entry and exit angles which vary considerably. IMO it's overkill (and considerably more expensive) plus it alllows the line to exit considerably above deck level so it becomes a trip hazard.

The line entry angle to the fixed deck mounted block is all the way from the mast top, so that doesn't vary more than a fraction of a degree when the mast rotates. The exit angle to the deck mounted cheek block out by the stanchion is constant. The constant entry and exit angles as the mast rotates are the key to not restricting the rotation. Conversely with the mast mounted block, the entry angle is constant, but when the mast rotates the block goes with it, changing the exit angle to the deck mounted cheek block. In reality it's probably no more than a few degrees each direction, but this is enough to restrict mast rotation when the halyard is properly tensioned. You could mount a "swivel block deckplate" to the mast, and the swivel block would allow the mast to rotate semi independently; it would still restirict mast rotation but to a lesser degree, and of course the trip hazard would be really serious.

The rope clutch for my main halyard is mounted about 12" forward of the starboard winch, as close to the coaming as possible and angled so the line exits directly toward the business (starboard) side of the winch. These can tolerate small angles on the line entry and exit (in other words, the line doesn't have to pass through perfectly straight) but you want to keep these pretty small to keep the side loads low when you start cranking on the line with the winch.

You might want to see what that mast mounted system looks like before you elect to go this way, if somebody will post a picture. With the cleat on the mast and the control line slack except when raising, theres no "permanent" halyard load to restrict mast rotation. I would guess that setup will be considerably more expensive, but from the description it sounds functional.

[Frank C]

The rope clutch for my main halyard is mounted about 12" forward of the starboard winch, as close to the coaming as possible and angled so the line exits directly toward the business (starboard) side of the winch. These can tolerate small angles on the line entry and exit (in other words, the line doesn't have to pass through perfectly straight) but you want to keep these pretty small to keep the side loads low when you start cranking on the line with the winch.

I guess the main halyard usually runs down the mast on starboard, and traditionally runs aft along starboard deck. As Chip mentioned earlier, his routing demands a lead that crosses the starboard deck, then aft along the lifelines, then faired (to cross the deck again) for a clockwise feed to the starboard winch.

I was determined to avoid lines crossing the deck, or running mid-deck on my 26X. If you're not hung up on tradition, consider this - the main halyard can be led to a port turn, and then run aft along the port hatch rail for a clockwise feed to the port winch. This means no lines running mid-deck, no lines crossing the deck, and the turn aft needs only a simple cheek block atop the port hatch rail. Such logic was genesis of the photos I posted long ago in my Lines Aft page, filed under "Cockpit" mods. The photo is actually one of me holding the main halyard on the port winch.

If you want to use a winch on the main halyard, your clutch can be mounted atop the port hatch rail (26X) to feed the port winch without any undue angulation. Some weeks later my sailing coach observed that three ripples in my lower mainsail indicated too much halyard tension ... so I re-routed the main halyard to starboard, and don't bother with the winch. He said to leave the boom unrestrained when hoisting main, so that body weight provides ample tension.

Different strokes.

[Chip Hindes]

As Chip mentioned earlier, his routing demands a lead that crosses the starboard deck, then aft along the lifelines,

Yes

then faired (to cross the deck again) for a clockwise feed to the starboard winch.

No. The rope clutch is mounted even with fore and aft and about 2" left of the aft top deck stanchion. It's angled slightly to feed directly to the winch. It doesn't cross the deck to feed to the winch, and even if it did, so what? It's on the winch a grand total of about 20 seconds, just long enough to tension it properly. After that it's removed form the winch, coiled and stowed.

Weeks later my sailing coach observed that three ripples in my lower mainsail indicated too much halyard tension ... so I re-routed the main halyard to starboard, and don't bother with the winch.

You once overtensioned the halyard with the winch, somebody pointed it out so you then assumed:

1) You will always overtension the halyard with the winch, so you must stop using it; and

2) you can attain adequate tension without the winch.

For the first, I have an alternative suggestion. When you are winching the halyard and determine that you have attained adequate tension, stop winching.

For the second, maybe, but you haven't established that.

I will admit to having a 55 year old back and a bad shoulder. I won't concede that winching the main halyard is only for old guys with bum parts.

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

I'm 61 years old. I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Peripheral Neuropathy, Ideopathic Hyper Eosinophilic Syndrome, Tinnitis, Bursitis, Arthritis, a surgically repaired right knee, and a torn rotator cuff.
I don't use the winch for the main halyard.

[Frank C]

Hey Bill,
I've got Tinnitis too! .... must help w/ that main halyard, eh?

Different strokes ...

[Frank C]

. . . The lines across the deck are already enough of a tripping hazard without jacking them way up by stacking cheek blocks. . .

Hmmmm - well there's at least ONE thing we agree on, Chip, lines crossing decks are a tripping hazard. I missed that your halyard crosses the deck only once, but also overlooked that your rope clutch is mid-deck near the starboard winch. So one line plus a stopper at mid-deck ... two deck obstacles that I prefer to avoid. Since you didn't take issue, I guess we also agree that some Mac owners might appreciate an option that avoids all deck obstacles in leading to a winch. Simply a different method of fairing to the winch, for those who so choose. TWO points of agreement - seems like progress!! (BTW, since all lines remain inboard along the hatch rails, cheek blocks stacked atop hatch rails aren't nearly the hazard you apparently imagined).

Somehow though, you critically assumed that I used my halyard winch only once. I never wrote that. My main halyard led to the port winch for some weeks. And, since I have blocks and stoppers along both hatch rails, it would take only 2 minutes to lead my main halyard to my port winch again (just in case someone using my boat chooses to winch the halyard). But apparently you missed this:

He said to leave the boom unrestrained when hoisting main, so that body weight provides ample tension.

After my dealer's Skipper noted that I had overtightened my halyard, he suggested as above, "... leave the boom unrestrained ... body weight provides ample tension." So I just strung my main halyard back along the starboard hatch rail (~2 minutes). I chose to take the Skipper's advice (as yours was not then handy ). Bill apparently agrees, so there are at least two Mac dealers suggesting a halyard winch is unnecessary.

Finally, I didn't even suggest THAT. I did not infer that anyone need be old or bum to use a winch. It bothers me not the slightest that perhaps many Mac owners might choose to use a winch on their halyard! That's why I offered the routing option. Perhaps you mistakenly perceived criticism? ... I hope not. AND, I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't criticize someone for choosing an approach different than Yours, would you? As noted twice above, Different strokes~!

[mtc]

Chip wrote:

For the M, I don't care what anyone else says, don't use mast base mounted turning blocks or you'll compromise mast rotation. It's simple physics. It's slightly more work, but I believe if you mount your upright lead block to the deck, as close to the mast as possible you'll be fine. Of course, you'll need a backing plate or large fender washers. The price you pay for the high performance rotating mast. Not that familiar with the setup; maybe you could replace the existing mast base plate with a wider plate so you could bolt stuff to the base plate?

I agree with Chip. that puppy's got to be free to spin on it's base. even my hobie hung-up or hesitated when tacking needing a push from my crew (my crew on a hobie, hee hee - like i was in the movie 'Wind')

anyway, i'd like to see some images of how this' been done. i've looked at the mod board, just don't remember if there were any images.

michael

[Chip Hindes]

there's at least ONE thing we agree on, Chip, lines crossing decks are a tripping hazard.

"Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this."

What I said was, if you take a line which otherwise would lie flat on the deck, and jack it up two or four inches off the deck with an improperly chosen or situated block, or you start stacking cheek blocks, yes, you've created a tripping hazard, so don't do that. Leave it flat on the deck.

If you're not careful and step on it, it might roll and might dump you. But since the reason we were running the lines aft to begin with was so we didn't have to go up on the deck, I'm not too concerned. But I've already admitted, "No lines across the deck," is not my mantra.

The halyard runs across the starboard deck just in front of the centerboard pendant, which already runs about two feet across the otherwikse open deck in that location. The free deck space between the centerboard cheek block and the stanchion is all of eight inches wide. That space is now crossed by the halyard. So yes, there's an eight inch space where the deck used to be clear that now is not, but it's not as if you've created a huge new tripping hazard; it's already there.

If, though, you run it across the port deck to the hatch rail, you have indeed run a line across about two feet of open space of deck where one did not exist previously. Funny thing. Not a problem for me since my topping lift aft is there already, and soon my vang line aft will be there also. But like I said, "No lines across the deck" is not my mantra.

Somehow though, you critically assumed that I used my halyard winch only once.

No again. What I assumed is that you got called on it once by somebody, and that was what decided you to stop winching because that's what you said.

Not winching the main halyard because you once were called for overtensioning it is about the same as getting a speeding ticket, then deciding you better walk from now on.

"... leave the boom unrestrained ... body weight provides ample tension."

Yes and no.

Yes: If you restrain the boom while raising the main, no amount of weight, back power, or winching will allow you to get proper tension on the halyard. If you winch hard enough, you can probably break something or rip the sail. Raising by hand could be a benefit in this case as it's much harder to break something.

No: You still haven't established this, and because one person said it doesn't make it so. Even if three people say it doesn't make it so. Especially when it appears a number of sailing manuals, the Mac owner's manual and manufacturers of other sailboats disagree. I have seen a sail training video produced by our local sailing school that recommends the truckers' hitch for 16' sailing dinghies, with about 1/3 the sail area of the Mac.

Maybe they all have it wrong.

Bill apparently agrees, so there are at least two Mac dealers suggesting a halyard winch is unnecessary.

Ah, the "my dealer's better than your dealer" gambit. I'm pretty sure no matter what very important or very obscure subject we're discussing, we can use a particular dealer's actions to reinforce our conflicting viewpoints. So: My halyard aft setup was done not by me but by my dealer, Art Reiders of Havencraft, RIP. Art sold hundreds of Macs, and he sold no other brand. If he wasn't the largest Mac dealer or even the largest exlclusively Mac dealer, he was one of the top two or three. Every boat Roger shipped to Art was already sold and he continually pushed Roger to send him more. When I bought my boat he had a four month waiting list for new boats, and during the height of the summer delivery season he was averaging nearly one delivery per business day. I believe Art was nearing 70 and he once told me he had a bad back, so maybe this influenced this particular installation. In any case, as much as any dealer, Art knew what he was doing.

Bill seems like a really nice guy as well. He's the only dealer who contributes regularly, his prices are great, and he seems to have a great ability to ratchet back a burgeoning flame war by injecting humor. Unfortunately, I can't take anything he says about winches seriously since he stated about six weeks ago they weren't needed to control the genny sheets. Do you agree with that as well? I'm thinking perhaps Bill was scared by a winch monster as a child. Or maybe it's because neither the halyard nor the genny sheets are blue.

It costs noting and takes no effort to site and orient your rope clutch so you can use the winch or not, as you choose. The ability to do so is important to me, though it's certainly not the only way, nor was it my intent to imply that it was.