MacGregorSailors.com

In NY you get an out of state inspection sticker which lets you have 10 days to inspect when you return to the state.

MT and ME are two states with friendly, lifetime registration policies

So the wife and I are getting ever more serious about this second boat on the east-coast plan. It makes more sense than buying or renting RVs or getting a vacation timeshare for us.

We're also considering simply shipping our boat back and forth, which can be done for as little as $2500 per trip by people who drive their truck with your trailer. We could pay for about eight of those trips before we got to the cost of another boat, and we'd avoid storage fees on the east coast. We could also opt to ship our boat to places like Seattle and Alaska this way. I rather dislike this because it's pure cost and doesn't leave us with a sellable asset when we're done.

Another option would be to keep a boat in Florida and rent it out through the winter exclusively to other MacGregor owners. If we decided to rent it out, we would have commercial renters liability insurance of $1M included so you wouldn't have to worry about damage, liability, repairs, or wear-and-tear, and it would be owned in an LLC (so it would be legit rental and operated as a business).

For those of you who live up north and don't get to sail all winter, would you consider a winter Florida vacation renting a Mac that was owned by me, and if so, what would you consider a reasonable rental price to be? Like most rentals, there would be a daily rate and a one-time cleaning fee.

We would hire a local boatyard to detail it prior, launch it, and have it ready at a slip. It would come with whatever random amount of fuel was left in it, so you should be prepared to fuel it up on your first outing.

We would likely be using guest, public, or boatyard docks, so usual marina amenities may be a little on the austere side.

If we decided to rent it, the boat would be higher spec than we would fit it out to for our own use. It would have a pump-out head, hot water, shore power, a refrigerator, AC, and an autopilot. The mainsail would have lazy jacks and the foresail would be a roller furling genoa. We would include a cockpit shower curtain.

We would likely change the location of the boat on an annual basis, so if you rented year after year, you'd be able to see different ports and locales. If there was significant interest, we would consider doing this with our San Diego boat as well, and if it actually made money we would consider putting one in Hawaii.

I know that a lot of us own Macs because they're the best value way to sail, and paying to rent something you already own and fly there to do it is pretty expensive, so I guess what I'm really asking is:

How stir crazy do you really get when you can't go out in the winter?

I actually like the break from sailing but then again I have been known to be out of the Hudson in January.

I think if I were to get on a plane for a mid-winter sail I would go to the Caribbean for a week on a charter cat with another couple I know. Luxury compared to a Mac.

One data point from someone even nuttier than you...

PS - did it go like this

Christy - I think we should get a Tatoo

Matt - Where?

Christy - Laura in FL

Matt - Oh, I thought...never mind...

That would definitely be something to think about for sure. I generally have lots to do all winter, but that would be something I would for sure consider from time to time. I've also been thinking of shipping our somewhere warm for a couple months, but that wold be something a person could do for say two weeks which is logistically more conceivable. As for long term (say six months) I have the same concerns you do, why not just buy one? or drag ours down? but again for a couple of weeks thats, something to think about. Also why stop at just Mac owners, I'd consider other sailboat owners wanting to explore an area before they bring sails theirs there. Great idea

Mastreb,

I like your idea for many reasons. I live in NC and have wanted to leave my Mac in FL for a month or two this coming winter. It's tough to find the time, but I'd love to sail the Northern Keys, The Punta Gorda Area and the St Johns River. These places are all near airports that I can fly to for less than $200 round trip.

Here are some thoughts from a potential customer:

1) When I was looking to buy a Mac, I really wanted to try one. The Mac/Tat rental would allow a "try before you buy" for shoppers. The problem for you is that inexperienced renters will not have motor sailor experience. You'd need to really stress the importance of daggerboard and ballast use.

2) Towing 10.5 hrs to Punta Gorda will cost me about $215 in gas, one way. And it will take a whole day of towing (about 11hrs). Towing that far makes for a long and stressful day.

I can fly to Punta Gorda for less than $100, one way on Allegiant Air. The flight takes about 4 hours door to door.

Two way towing totals = Gas Cost $430, 22 hrs of travel time. (I'm not counting truck/trailer wear and tear)
Two way flight totals = @ $200 per person, 8 hrs of travel time

The travel costs are about equal for a couple to fly down, but the travel time savings becomes significant when vacation time is tight (and isn't it always tight?).

3) The drive might also add another night's hotel cost. If I get up at 5:00 a.m., drive 11 hrs, take food and bathroom breaks for @ 1.5 hrs, that puts me at Punta Gorda near nightfall in the winter. I will be super tired and should probably rest before getting too far out in the water. Add $100.

3) I'm guessing to spend at least $100 a month to dry store a boat and truck in FL (also, I won't have a truck to use in NC).

The bottom line is that your rental idea is appealing in terms of time savings for a week long trip. The renting decision gets tougher when I consider that I have @ 30K in a a similar boat that I would not be using. And Catigale is right that the Caribbean alternative is appealing.

It's a great idea and I encourage you to keep thinking about it. Perhaps some FL based owners could help you trailer it in exchange for boat time. Or, you may find a boat rental company that would add a mac to their fleet with your help.

Catigale wrote:Christy - I think we should get a Tattoo

Matt - Where?

Christy - Laura in FL

Matt - Oh, I thought...never mind...

davidbourne wrote:When I was looking to buy a Mac, I really wanted to try one. The Mac/Tat rental would allow a "try before you buy" for shoppers.

This is such a fantastic idea that I'd be sure the factory knew about the boat so they could recommend renting to customers on the fence. but...

The problem for you is that inexperienced renters will not have motor sailor experience. You'd need to really stress the importance of daggerboard and ballast use.

This is why Macs would make poor rental boat fleet choices. You can't power with the daggerboard up, and you can't sail without ballast in. Forget either of the two ever and you have an unstable boat subject to knockdown. The boat would have to be plastered with warning stickers and even then I wouldn't be comfortable with it. The only "safe" way to do a mac as a rental boat would be to mount a 10hp outboard that can't plane and seal the ballast tank closed with a chlorinated full tank in it.

As for travel costs, we've towed our boat from San Diego to the Chesapeake and back, and while it was a great adventure, it was by no means cost effective. The fuel cost alone was $2200 and that's with the most efficient diesel tow vehicle I know of (we averaged 14.8mpg overall on the trip). Including marina, storage, and trailer repair costs we were at $4000, and that's not including time or hotels for the trip, which took 5 weeks. I'm not counting time or hotels because we would have incurred those on any vacation. It's the full accounting of these costs (and the amount of fun we had) that has us considering a second boat on the east coast.

Perhaps some FL based owners could help you trailer it in exchange for boat time. Or, you may find a boat rental company that would add a mac to their fleet with your help.

Also two great ideas! FL-based owners? Maybe those with a boat lift

We don't have to turn a profit at this by any means. If all we did was cover the storage and maintenance costs so that when we went to the east coast we had a clean boat in the water and ready to go, I'd be very happy.

But the most important number in any business is what will the actual market bear in terms of cost. If you were interested in renting, how long would you want the boat for on average, and how much would a fair daily rate be? And if you think you would never consider renting, please also comment and let me know your thoughts.

I suppose we could just test the idea here in San Diego with our current boat, although I know our Marina will not allow renting, so we'd have to take it to the Police docks each time we let it out.

Matt,
I came up with similar numbers. Our yearly trip from Annapolis to lower Florida costs about $1000 in transportation roundtrip. This includes towing for 2200 miles, two cheap hotels or RV campground, meals and miscellaneous and it is done in 4 days (roundtrip).
If we were to fly to charter a boat we would pay at least $800 in plane tickets for a family of four (I don’t have to worry about the fifth ticket for the next two years) done in half a day each way plus the cost of the charter.
Hence, would only make sense for us if the charter is less than $200. You can make a case for a higher charter fee for the price of my three extra days of vacation (4 minus two half days); hence, the question is if I am willing to pay to use someone else’s boat because I get some extra time?
For people in New England or Canada that number might be close to $600, but that would not be economically viable for you except to cover insurance and maybe storage if you have on average one charter per month.
I am excluding wear and tear of rig and tow beast, mods for chartering (like a bimini ), and as you said assuming your charter would not include slip.
Pedro

mastreb[quote] wrote:.... For those of you who live up north and don't get to sail all winter, would you consider a winter Florida vacation renting a Mac that was owned by me, and if so, what would you consider a reasonable rental price to be? Like most rentals, there would be a daily rate and a one-time cleaning fee. ....

My wife and I have often talked about the fact that we would like to poke about in Florida waters for a week or two at a time; and the Mac is a great choice in our opinion. Towing a Mac down there from BC is not high on our list of fun or economical things to do though. So your plan sounds great.
I like the logic of restricting the rentals to people who are proven familiar with Macs (although if one could identify genuinely knowledgeable owners of other sailboats they would likely be trustworthy as well). This approach would greatly reduce the incidence of being 'disappointed' with the customer.
Our plan would likely be to fly in, hop aboard, and return to dock at the end of 1-2 weeks to fly out.
For guidance on rental charges I would probably look at the charter costs of sailboats found in boating magazines, and adopt similar values.
We would likely motor much more than sail, keeping the daggerboard and rudders raised; but clearly many Mac owners love to sail.
Winter would be the season of choice for most northeners, as you suggest.
Congratulations on an energetic idea!
Kittiwake

Or...do you timeshare it with 3-4 other buyers to keep the capital cost down, and recover maintenance with other rentals?

Just thinking out loud.

Kittiwake wrote:For guidance on rental charges I would probably look at the charter costs of sailboats found in boating magazines, and adopt similar values.

Looking at cruzin.com shows that comparable boats run about $500/day. I think that's rather unreasonable and I question how often those boats are actually let out. Cruzin.com lets out the privately owned boats of individuals (similar to what we would be doing) so I think those rates are based on owners who don't have to rent the boat out, rather than companies who specialize in boat rentals. I guess that's sort of what I'm doing.

Bareboat chartering on The Moorings (moorings.com) is extremely expensive (around $1000/day) but involves boats 38' and larger. It's just a different thing altogether in my opinion.

Frankly just about all boat rentals for sailboats are larger than a MacGregor, and I've not found anything for less than $350/day on a weekly rate. But again, those are larger boats than a MacGregor, and they all permanently occupy a slip and have higher recurring maintenance costs.

The total cost of ownership for the boat if we did not rent it out, including capital expense, and storage/marina costs, annual registration and taxes, is right around $1000/mo. $12K per annum is right around what it would cost us to ship our current boat to the east coast and stay in a guest slip for between 30 and 60 days in a single trip, which is why we're considering this at all.

The additional costs of operating the business such as marketing costs, maintenance, commercial insurance, and the labor overhead of managing, are about an additional $500/mo.

The one-time costs of renting the boat, including cleaning fees, launch fees, slip rental, and haul-out I expect to be about $500. So that would have to be the expected "Cleaning fee" charged to everyone irrespective of how long they had it in the water. This fee is also useful for making sure you don't get a lot of people who only want the boat for just one day, but you can accommodate them if they want to pay for it.

So we would need to make about $1500/mo. on the boat in order to break even, and if we took it off the market for three months of the year for our own use, that would be $2000/mo.

My bald-faced guess is that we would get a total of nine rentals throughout the winter for a week each, and so those would have to bring in a total of $2000 each in order to break even. With a $600 one-time prep fee and a $200 daily rate, I think there's a business. Or we could say a $250 one-time prep and a $250 daily rate, but I really want to encourage fewer longer rentals, so that argues for a higher prep fee and a lower daily rate. I think for the fly-in MacGregor owner, that makes more sense.

Do those numbers seem attractive to you guys above the snow line? Pedro, that's a little more than you wanted to see, but it's also a chance to avoid all the prep work and trailering. Would it make sense for you?

Another good thing about this idea is that I can test my assumptions by letting out our boat in San Diego under the same terms. We can't use our marina and I would have to put a separate commercial insurance rider on the boat, but I can put it in at our very nice public docks and be here to supervise the whole thing (and take out forum members for dinner one night !)

We may do just that.

Catigale wrote:Or...do you timeshare it with 3-4 other buyers to keep the capital cost down, and recover maintenance with other rentals?

Just thinking out loud.

It's a possibility, but rather difficult to put together and legally a bit complicated. We'd use a Google shared calendar for scheduling with the presumption that any time not scheduled is open for rental. There are a lot of people who share boat ownership and I've done it in the past with friends (my columbia sabre was co-owned with a friend) who have remained friends, but that was much simpler to organize here in town.

If I knew of someone with a boat to rent in Florida, I would just do that

There are for rent locally in BC $250/day with 3 day minimum rental. Pricing seems about right.

but it's also a chance to avoid all the prep work and trailering. Would it make sense for you?

Based on our relative proximity to FL and family size it would not be appealing for us, but ther might be others further south willing to do it. We switched to a stronger tow beast for the sole purpose or making more trips around the East Coast. I also enjoy making mods for those longer trips. To me, it defeats the point of owning a Mac to have to charter one in a place where I could take mine.
I would say that maybe you should consider your potential customers beyond Mac sailors. I am amazed with how many nice large boats in the Annapolis area are pretty much ready for a circumnavigation, but they never leave the Cheasapeake Bay since it takes over a week each way on the ICW to get to Florida. While they talk about how their diesel tanks are enough to cross the pond, most of their boats have not seen salt water in decades.
Although plenty of boat owners would prefer to charter a week in the Caribbean in a 30-something Moorings boat for over $6000, I think that for the right price some would be willing to compromise and enjoy the Keys in a smaller boat. You now have two stronger advertising points: 1. For sailors without a (working) trailable sailboat, it makes sense to fly or even drive to Florida instead of spending two weeks taking the boat back and forth and 2. With the shoal draft the Mac is still one of the best sailboats to have in Florida. Who knows, maybe you can even convert some purist sailors to become Mac owners.
My $0.02 and good luck with your decision,
Pedro

Quite frankly, if I were flying to a destination to sail (which is what I would have to do), the Mac wouldn't be my choice to rent. Florida wouldn't be my choice of destination.

To outfit the Mac with a fridge, AC, hot water would take a lot of work and space,not leaving much room for people. Renting it to the public would frighten me. As mentioned, ballast in, boards down etc. Maybe with a tiny motor and locked ballast tank. What would your insurance carrier charge you to rent a 26' Mac? What screening would you have to do to renters to satisfy them? Do you really trust someone docking your boat? Have you ever rented real estate, this is like that x 10. How beat up would it get? Who will inspect the boat for damage? Then you have to market this idea. Is a 26' charter really attractive to outsiders? You may have some northern Mac owners, but that's a very small market. I just don't see the Mac as a good charter. It's a tender boat. You get some newby freaked out by the healing on a Yelp review and your are cooked.

I have a friend in NJ who rented sailboats as part of his sailing school. All his boats were tradional keel boats and sailed in protected bay waters. He wouldn't rent to you until you proved yourself via credentials or passed his sailing school courses. He owned the marina and yard, so storage and maintenance wasn't an issue. All his charters were on mooring balls.

IF, you wanted to buy a boat to charter, a catamaran would make more sense. Stable, roomy and more marketable. When you get bored of a port it's based in, hire a captain to move it. I've seen some North East charters that migrate south each winter.

I'm actually exploring a moorings.com charter this winter. Got the brochure and it's gorgeous. Probably why it's so expensive. To believe their marketing their boats are relatively new and fully provisioned. To do that, they have staff outfitting their boats. If I'm chartering a boat, it will be in the Caribbean where I can get away from zillions of people and find an island to explore. To make it worth my trip, I want a decent sized boat.

I may not be typical. When I travel 2000 miles, I want to make it worth it. Others may drive to your Mac just to go sailing and be willing to rent it.

It's an interesting idea. You've got more guts than me.

--Russ