New hoses for water drain

[kurz]

Power boats often drain the motorwell directly through the transom. Not sure why Roger designed the motorwell and drain this way.

aha, understand now. From the motorwell you do not go vertical down but horizontal directely out... this way it could end above the water line... Makes sense...
If Roger did so the sink could easily go higher...

[Highlander]

I believe there r a couple guys on here who have already put a wooden plugs into their bilge & eng. well outlets & glassed them over & installed a new one above the water line & one direct thro the eng. well transom "Bill 4 sale" also recommends doing this

J

[paul I]

So I got to check the engine well drain yesterday. Its a bit uglier than I remember.

Mine looks to be made from 1" ID vinyl tube with two plastic 90 degree ells. The first 90 connects directly to the glassed-in motor well pipe. The 90 is oriented so that its output points horizontally, parallel with the transom. It connects to a piece of tube about 16" long and runs toward the port side of the boat. The second 90 connects to this tube and turns out, through the glassed-in drain pipe in the transom. The connections between the 90's and the glassed-in pipes are small pieces of tube, maybe 3-4" long. If I can get a pic of the assembly I will edit the post and insert it.

The long vinyl tube drops below the water line as it travels between the two 90s, so it acts kind of like a sink trap. This could be a potential problem when it freezes, but apparently it hasn't ruptured so far. With me laying in the berth looking at it, the sunlight through the fiberglass indicated the drain is about 1/2" above the waterline. Any wave action, additional weight, or planing would surely allow water to enter the drain hole.

Here is where it gets weird. There doesn't appear to be any barbed fittings on the 90s. They look like 3/4" slip fit connectors with the 1" tubing slipped over the OD of the fittings. It could be that I just cant tell the fittings have barbs, but that's what it looks like. The tubing extends fully into the crotch of the 90 and I cant feel anything solid in the tube past the edge of the hose clamp. There is one hose clamp at each connection. I doubt there is enough room to actually double up on hose clamps. The tubing looks black but I cant tell if it is just discolored on the inside or if it is actually black vinyl. It is not like the corrugated type of tube in some of the pics shown here. The exterior is smooth.

I don't know if this is factory or something the PO replaced.

I couldn't detect any past leakage. Next chance I get I plan to run a hose line into the motor well and let water flow while I go below and observe it. I'm debating whether I should replace it (you know the adage... if its not broken.... ), but it looks kinda scarey.

If I do replace it, the plan would be to but about 2.5 feet of 1" ID reinforced vinyl tube and two barbed plastic 90s, and a new set of hose clamps. Bring a tubing cutter capable of cutting the barbed fittings, as I suspect the slip fittings may have been used because of space constraints and/or to limit the amount of tube that is below the water line. It could also be that since the glassed in pipes also do not have barbs, they didn't think it would matter. Also bring an expandable 3/4" plug to temporarily close off the transom pipe and leave it on board for emergency.

What do you guys think? I need some moral support, not to mention any advice you may have.

[Starscream]

S

I don't know if this is factory or something the PO replaced.

No, that's stock. No barbs. Gives me the creeps too. I haven't heard of any failures in the 10 years or so I've been participating on this forum though.

My (only semi-serious) thought is that the 99X's will start having problems 3 years before my 2002X so I should start hearing about problems a couple of years before I need to do anything about it. There are a lot of X's out there so unless I'm a statistical anomoly that plan should be just fine.

I carry two drain plugs that fit in the outside drain hole. That hole is regularly underwater.

[paul I]

No, that's stock. No barbs. Gives me the creeps too. I haven't heard of any failures in the 10 years or so I've been participating on this forum though.

My (only semi-serious) thought is that the 99X's will start having problems 3 years before my 2002X so I should start hearing about problems a couple of years before I need to do anything about it. There are a lot of X's out there so unless I'm a statistical anomoly that plan should be just fine.

I carry two drain plugs that fit in the outside drain hole. That hole is regularly underwater.

Are those 90s what they appear to be? Socket style PVC fittings with the hoses clamped to the socket ODs?

[Tomfoolery]

I thought I remember even seeing a pic someone had of that aft drain connection... but I cant find it.

I couldn't find it either, and I know I posted it at least a couple of times before, assuming you're referring to my pics. Probably a P'Bucket thing.

In case they were my pics, here they are again.

[paul I]

I thought I remember even seeing a pic someone had of that aft drain connection... but I cant find it.

I couldn't find it either, and I know I posted it at least a couple of times before, assuming you're referring to my pics. Probably a P'Bucket thing.

In case they were my pics, here they are again.

Thank you for the re-post Tom. It provides a great pic of the actual setup.

I got to take an even closer look at mine yesterday which left me with some rather gloomy conclusions. I set up a garden hose to run water into the motor well while I crawled back to have a look. There is a leak in the thru-hull pipe. It's a small leak, but it's definitely there. Unfortunately it does not look like its coming from the vinyl hose or the hose connection. It seems to be coming from the side of the glassed-in pipe itself - right through one of the wrinkles in the resin - but it is very difficult to pinpoint because the resin is so rough. It looks like the PO noticed it as well since there appears to be white flexible sealant smeared around the joint as well as extra resin applied around the pipe to hull joint. Maybe its factory... maybe not, but its definitely not as smooth a surface as what is in Tom's photo. I plan to check it again even more closely to be absolutely sure, hopefully with a mirror to be able to see the other side of the transom pipe better.

I would estimate in the hour or so I was running water into the motor well the boat took on a few ounces of water. When I vacuumed out the bilges I got about 1 to 1.25 gallons of water. This water may have been in there since sometime last season plus whatever may have accumulated over the winter. So its not devastating, but it is a problem, and it explains the strange condensation I've been getting on the underside of the rear berth cushions over the last couple of years. My guess is it is coming in predominately due to rain water and it could certainly could enter while sailing. When berthed however there does not seem to be any water intrusion.

So how to repair? I just cant see trying to add more material in an attempt to seal the pipe-hull joint. I think the best course might be to drill it out completely and install a real thru-hull. A 1" thru-hull probably requires a 1-1/2" entry hole, give or take. But I will need to be able to drill a center hole in the middle of the PVC pipe that is already there. My idea is to fill it with epoxy putty and use that to drill a center hole. There is also a build up of resin around the pipe itself that I think will need to be ground off to provide a flatter backing. And its not going to be easy to get a grinder back in there.

This repair is probably not going to happen until next spring. The boat is in its berth now and this isn't a repair I feel comfortable doing while in the water. We never use the rear berth except for storage. I'm going to remove the cushions and the bilge covers and keep the wet/dry shop vac handy and suck it out every few weeks through the season.

Any ideas or comments you have would be most welcome.

[Tomfoolery]

I haven't done this, so take it all with a grain of salt.

I don't think I'd want to grind that glass, in large part because of the dust that's almost impossible to get cleaned out without wearing it. But you might want to consider either glassing the tube with the proper fabric and resin, or drilling it out and installing a proper thru-hull. I'd use a wooden dowel or slug turned on a lathe to center the hole saw.

You might be able to make a form that can be bolted thru the hole to make a flat surface on the inside using glass and resin - you only need enough thickness to make a flat surface. Basically glass it, then clamp the form with a center bolt through the hole with some sort of release agent (wax paper?) so the inside block doesn't stick to the partially cured resin.

Just some random ideas, which may or may not be useful. But it's the first thing I thought of.

[paul I]

I haven't done this, so take it all with a grain of salt.

I don't think I'd want to grind that glass, in large part because of the dust that's almost impossible to get cleaned out without wearing it. But you might want to consider either glassing the tube with the proper fabric and resin, or drilling it out and installing a proper thru-hull. I'd use a wooden dowel or slug turned on a lathe to center the hole saw.

You might be able to make a form that can be bolted thru the hole to make a flat surface on the inside using glass and resin - you only need enough thickness to make a flat surface. Basically glass it, then clamp the form with a center bolt through the hole with some sort of release agent (wax paper?) so the inside block doesn't stick to the partially cured resin.

Just some random ideas, which may or may not be useful. But it's the first thing I thought of.

Thanks for the reply Tom. I don't think its worth the trouble trying to seal up what is already there. It looks like its been done at least once already, and failed (apparently). So drilling out the old pipe and installing a proper thru-hull seems like the best way.

But I hear ya. Grinding it out perfectly flat would be a bear. And I hate working with fiberglass resin.

My Hunter had plywood backing plates for all its thru hulls. The plywood was shaped to the curvature of the hull on one side to give a solid flat surface on the other.

What about this idea... with a dremel tool I can probably cut away the largest resin "gobs" that dripped down the wall at the bottom of the pipe ( I really need to get a pic posted of the situation just to show you how truly ugly it is). Then fabricate a plywood backing plate and shape it a bit to take care of some more of the irregularity that surrounds the pipe hole. The transoms rear wall is pretty flat in this area, its the excess resin that was applied that is causing the irregularity. Then assemble it all together with 3M 4200 sealant and generous sealant applied between the inner hull and the wooden backing plate.

It is the interface between the outer mushroom head and the outer hull surface that provided the seal, correct? I think I could provide a solid flat backing for a thru-hull by doing the above.

Please all.... feel free to poke holes in this (pun intended).

Other facts I want to include in the post for the sake of completeness.

The OEM hose is clear vinyl, not black. The black color it takes on is just from interior sediment, dirt, or mold.

I still have not seen any signs that the OEM plastic 90s are barbed. I did however find two stubby 1" nylon elbows at West marine to use as replacements. I also bought 3 feet of Shields 1" reinforced vinyl hose.

[BOAT]

I would not be too concerned about the motor well drain because in an emergency it can easily be plugged from the cockpit with a rubber plug. I keep an assortment of plugs on board and I even leave a plug rolling around in the motor well so it's right where I need it in case that hose blows or the drain neck fails.



I don't think you need to tear up the motor well drain if it's not leaking and not causing trouble - just get some plugs and keep them in the boat and you will be safe. The well is pretty high above the water and the plugs work really good - I tested them because I use the motor well as a holding tank for my shower sump pump when in the harbor so I can pull the plug and dump my shower grey water when I am out of the harbor. Holding the contents of the motor well is the only pressure that drain will ever see and it's very little pressure. The plug holds all the water in and does not leak.

The sink drain is another story - if you do not have a barb and a thru hull on the sink drain you should really consider putting one in. The sink drain is under water a lot of the time and there is great pressure on it sometimes. It's also a difficult drain to reach from the cockpit. I would agree with Bill on that one - best to replace it if it's not a barb.

[paul I]

I would not be too concerned about the motor well drain because in an emergency it can easily be plugged from the cockpit with a rubber plug. I keep an assortment of plugs on board and I even leave a plug rolling around in the motor well so it's right where I need it in case that hose blows or the drain neck fails.



I don't think you need to tear up the motor well drain if it's not leaking and not causing trouble - just get some plugs and keep them in the boat and you will be safe. The well is pretty high above the water and the plugs work really good - I tested them because I use the motor well as a holding tank for my shower sump pump when in the harbor so I can pull the plug and dump my shower grey water when I am out of the harbor. Holding the contents of the motor well is the only pressure that drain will ever see and it's very little pressure. The plug holds all the water in and does not leak.

The sink drain is another story - if you do not have a barb and a thru hull on the sink drain you should really consider putting one in. The sink drain is under water a lot of the time and there is great pressure on it sometimes. It's also a difficult drain to reach from the cockpit. I would agree with Bill on that one - best to replace it if it's not a barb.

Boat,

I'm not worried about the motor well drain. I'm worried about the transom drain that the motor well drains into. See Toms photo. The pipe to the left is glassed into the motor well. The pipe to the right is glassed into the transom. That's the one that is leaking on my boat. I'm pretty sure it is closer to the water line than the sink drains are.

Depending on how well the transom replacement goes I may well do the sink drains as well eventually.

[Tomfoolery]

I'm not worried about the motor well drain. I'm worried about the transom drain that the motor well drains into. See Toms photo. The pipe to the left is glassed into the motor well. The pipe to the right is glassed into the transom. That's the one that is leaking on my boat. I'm pretty sure it is closer to the water line than the sink drains are.

It's just a couple of inches above the water line, as witnessed by the slime line.



And here's some discussion on thru-hulls. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26666&p=331457

[BOAT]

Sorry, it's hard for me to see what's going on in this picture.
But I have been concerned about the design for a awhile.
These Motor well drains are double jeopardy on the MACS - Even if you plug the motor well from above, the water will still pour into the cabin from the transom drain because the water goes into the transom hole and up the hose to the broken well drain and just comes out there - same goes for a failed hose there - plug the well and the water will still come into the boat from the failed hose through transom drain. ("Sink Drain" if you own an M boat).

This is why I call the transom drain the bigger problem (well, on the M boat we don't call it a "transom drain", we call it the "sink drain"). I still can't tell from the picture how the sink drains. I understand you X drivers have TWO sinks on board? Right? A bathroom head sink and a galley sink, - is that right? How do those drain?

Anyways, ANY of those hoses become a liability if they fail because water can back up into them from the transom.

I have a solution to the problem and have mentioned it before but it too requires replacing the transom drain with a proper barbed thru hull fitting. I really can't see any way to get around that. The M boat comes with a barbed thru hull on the transom, (well, 'boat' came with one from the factory - not sure if all the other M boats are like that).

[paul I]

I still can't tell from the picture how the sink drains. I understand you X drivers have TWO sinks on board? Right? A bathroom head sink and a galley sink, - is that right? How do those drain?

The picture shows the motor well connected to the transom drain. In addition the has 3 additional "thru-hulls" made from glassed in pipe. One for each for the two sinks and one for the anchor locker. I believe all of them are further above the water line than is the transom drain. All of them are built the same way. The transom drain is just slightly below the motor well, so it does drain, but the connecting pipe can never completely empty.

PS: The sink in the head? What were they thinking? Be able to sit on the porta potty and barf at the same time?

[BOAT]

I still can't tell from the picture how the sink drains. I understand you X drivers have TWO sinks on board? Right? A bathroom head sink and a galley sink, - is that right? How do those drain?

The picture shows the motor well connected to the transom drain. In addition the has 3 additional "thru-hulls" made from glassed in pipe. One for each for the two sinks and one for the anchor locker. I believe all of them are further above the water line than is the transom drain. All of them are built the same way. The transom drain is just slightly below the motor well, so it does drain, but the connecting pipe can never empty.

PS: The sink in the head? What were they thinking? Be able to sit on the porta potty and barf at the same time?

Well, the X boat was more like an RV so people new to boating really loved the idea that you could wash your hands in the bathroom (especially the females). The X also had a huge generous galley and a big motor home dinette dinner table to go with it and those big front windows you could see unobstructed just like you were in an RV. That design brought thousands of new people to sailing that had not considered it before. Roger sort of abandoned the floating Winnebago concept for the last boat and made it more of a traditional sailboat accommodation so the M boat does not have any of those "RV" features like the a stand up head (just TRY to pee standing up at 45 degrees) or a bathroom sink, (our bathroom sink for brushing teeth and so forth was usually the side of the boat) or the big galley style restaurant dinette seating which was replaced with a tiny galley that slid under the cockpit - not a real gourmet kitchen in the M compared to the X. The big windows were gone too replaced with tiny submarine ports with no forward view to accommodate the double ridge he put in the cabin top to make it much stronger. Roger went back to a traditional sailboat design on the last boat. I guess he figured he had garnered enough interest and customers with the X boat by the time he started design on the M. It was a classic bait and switch. It worked on me -

There is a good way to control the main thru hull near the water line - it's not "too" expensive, but in an emergency it might save the boat.