Missing flotation styrofoam

[dlandersson]

So window screens on a submarine are a bad idea?

All of the boats I've owned, I fully expected to sink if I put a hole any larger than a dime. I've seen how fast water 1' below the water line comes in a hole that size.

[Russ]

So window screens on a submarine are a bad idea?

All of the boats I've owned, I fully expected to sink if I put a hole any larger than a dime. I've seen how fast water 1' below the water line comes in a hole that size.

Only when submerged.

[Highlander]

I often thought about replacing Aft Berth & V-Berth cushions with air mattresses but finding them 3-4" high seem to b difficult !

this is another option

J

[Chumpy36]

Anyone have opinions as to whether play pit balls might provide more floatation? And be less mess and won’t absorb water?

Thx

[Russ]

I don't see why plastic play balls would not work. Although the gaps between them might not be as efficient as block foam.

MacGregor seemed to stuff scrap styrofoam into every corner of the boat. Mine has what looks like pieces he recycled from stuff that got shipped to the factory. The stuff just jammed into spaces everywhere.

Honestly, I don't use the boat depending on it floating if I punch a big hole in it.
I've never owned a boat that I didn't expect to sink and operated it accordingly.
PFDs and a handheld floating VHF are probably better safety equipment than depending on the boat floatation.

My expectations of the built in floatation would have me clinging to a carcass of a boat with water at the deck. Which of course is easier to be located and rescued than no boat at all. The brochure photo has no motor or equipment onboard and is in still water.

With that said, these boats have an amazing safety record. Considering most are owned by first-time, inexperienced sailors, I've heard of only 2 accidents where the boats were capsized out of tens of thousands of these boats manufactured. Those 2 accidents were grossly overloaded boats and poor captain mistakes.

[Jimmyt]

Anyone have opinions as to whether play pit balls might provide more floatation? And be less mess and won’t absorb water?

Thx

More? Hard to say. Depends on how much water you can displace vs how much the items weigh. So, how you can pack them into spaces gets to be part of the equation. Spheres packed together have voids - no way to avoid it (see what I did there?). Rectangular shapes might pack better - depending on the shape of the compartment you're filling. At any rate, play pit balls would be a good way to get flotation (I can recall some use of plastic bottles and other similar containers).

The balls would be easy to remove for access, and could be cleaned fairly easily. As long as you can contain them in the space you place them, they should work.

Now, where you put the flotation will impact how the vessel "floats" when swamped. Putting flotation low in the boat may cause the boat to invert when swamped. This is ok as long as crew clears the boat before it happens. The M swamps right side up, according to the factory propaganda. The running and standing rigging are a real hazard in a swamping/sinking if the boat inverts. Crew can become entangled and be drowned. I would presume that this is why we have a lot of flotation high in the boat. If you can keep the rigging above, or near the surface, survival is more likely.

There have been several debates over flotation in the past. I have a shiny white hull about 8 ft wide and 26 ft long. It will be floating in the brownish/greenish water of the bay, or the blue green water of the gulf. It will be a lot easier to find than a human head and shoulders. So, I'm a believer in keeping the boat above the water. But, as Ray always says, "Your boat, your rules".

Edit: Looks like Russ had many of the same thoughts while I was posting...

[Stickinthemud57]

I'm not sure the possibility of styrofoam absorbing water is really much of any issue for the short amount of time is would actually be wet during a capsize.

Jimmyt makes a good point re actual displacement volume for spheres vs cubes.

As much as I like modding my boat (and as much as I hate the mess from removing/replacing styrofoam), I am prone to leave the manufacturer's solution as is, but, as they say, your boat.

[Chumpy36]

Thanks y’all. I’m gonna start or reply to another thread with some rot I found in the mast step area. Maybe whatever solution I incorporate there will inform the floatation decision. I still have the cubes I removed. They seem light enough so I don’t think they have absorbed eater

[NiceAft]

Russ said:

The brochure photo has no motor or equipment onboard and is in still water.

If you didn't notice before, look again; the crew is perfectly centered to prevent tipping.

[OverEasy]

Hi All
There seems to be some hair splitting on the design intent and function of the styrofoam used on the various MacGregor sailboats….
While I can’t say that Rodger MacGregor didn’t repurpose some styrofoam from various shipping it doubtful that he did…mainly because he built too many boats and it doesn’t make economic sense for him to have done so. He was a business and styrofoam is readily sold, shipped and delivered in various sheet thicknesses all the time…especially in the years that he was manufacturing boats. It’s also more than a bit disingenuous as well to even approach it from that perspective.

If one actually looks at the various shapes of styrofoam placed within the MacGregor boats you find it is all flat sheet stock of very similar density. None of the factory installed pieces have round forms and none has any logo or paper label debris. It’s what is termed virgin material. As with any good shop the leftover pieces not used on a particular boat’s assembly was set aside for the next and used on an as needed basis. So anyone unfamiliar with actual shop practices might assume incorrectly that MacGregor was using shipping scraps when in actuality it was good virgin material from one assembly overlapping into the next.

MacGregor was no fool. He knew what it took to keep a Mac hull afloat and the design utilized controlled density materials and volumes to accomplish that objective. Both from an engineered design safety and quality perspective but also from a moral ethics and liability perspective.

No, MacGregor couldn’t predict what individual owners would choose to cram into these boats (of which I am guilty 🫣) but for the nominal boat with nominal equipment, fittings and a 50 HP 2-stroke outboard motor of that vintage age a Mac26X or Mac26M (or the factory recommended engine for the particular model size) there would have been sufficient positive foam floatation installed at manufacture to float the vessel as a fully capsized (flooded cabin) condition.

Now if one had any sense one would be sitting in the cockpit rather than climbing up and standing on the cabin roof (as shown in the promotional photos) but the ability to do so only goes to prove that there is more than sufficient positive flotation built in. If one is sitting in the flooded cockpit your own body mass is nearly neutral already by the water it displaces. The flooded cockpit offers some physical protection from the seas vs. the solo independent individual adrift. Getting even a partially exposed vessel sighted by Search & Rescue or other vessel is a whole lot more viable that an individual afloat by him/herself.

Now about the displacement of styrofoam… it for all intents and purposes a very good material. It is relatively impervious to water getting inside the actual material or beads. Over time some water can potentially migrate into the minute spaces between the beads but that relatively minor. The styrofoam beads at the relevant near surface conditions to be anticipated in the full flooded capsize condition have a very good resistance to hydrodynamic fluidic compression (which means it isn’t crushed and maintains its buoyancy.

When considering plastic balls there is a whole lot more non-enclosed space between the spheres in the same cubic foot of available “stuffing” space vs styrofoam. The same goes for cylinders such as water bottles (or other hollow sealed items). That might be crammed into such “stuffing” spaces. Where’s and cylinders are actually more susceptible to hydrodynamic crush forces than styrofoam. Crushing of the spheres or cylinders will also reduce the initial assumed displacement buoyancy…

Now as to the aspect of fire retardants… the basic hull and structure of any MacGregor is fiberglass and resin plastic which is combustible and it’s surface is readily accessible to potential ignition sources whereas the styrofoam is hidden away within the floatation cavities. As such there is a significantly reduced likelihood of potential ignition of the styrofoam flotation.

Now one of the things one can do to mitigate the effect of the weight additions made by modifications and customizations (such as A/C , larger motors, gear and supplies) one can “add” additional flotation. A pair of prime locations on the Mac26X to add additional flotation is in the aft berth region up all on the outer sides between the hull liner and shell for the inner cockpit shell. Several rectangular sheet stock styrofoam sections taped together and secured within that void on both sides evenly would provide significant buoyancy improvement.

Best Regards,
Over Easy

[ris]

The choice for us was stinking black Styrofoam or clean air and more storage. We chose storage. But we also have no "bilge pump" as there is not much bilge in a Mac. We worry more about getting run over by a big boat while at anchor than our Mac sinking. We usually anchor in shallow water so that is not much of a worry. We actually are glass half full people so we just enjoy our Mac and do not worry much about disaster. If you quit watching the news you will live a much more relaxed life also.
Richard

[Jimmyt]

If you quit watching the news you will live a much more relaxed life also.
Richard

Too true!

[Starscream]

Anyone have opinions as to whether play pit balls might provide more floatation? And be less mess and won’t absorb water?

Thx

Yeah, I tried it. In the bow compartment under the V-berth.

I had to remove most of the original styrofoam because of mold issues. The ball pit balls are OK, but there's a lot of empty air between the balls. I didn't really think that the ratio of cost to flotation was worth it. So now I just use empty gallon jugs instead. Windshield washer fluid, antifreeze, etc. It works better when they're square-ish.

I've stuffed the bilges full of these jugs to offset all the additional gear we have. In the rear berth, the jugs help solidify the fiberglass floor sheet, so it moves and creacks much less as you move around on it. I know that flotation down low carries its own capsize risk if the boat is filling with water, but I've accepted that. Dual high-capacity bilge pumps help me sleep at night. Plus, the jugs in the bilges will cause any water that is getting into the bilges to show up on the cabin floor sooner.

[OverEasy]

The choice for us was stinking black Styrofoam or clean air and more storage.

Hi RIS!

We opened up and checked our bow floatation compartment of our Mac26X recently to check on potential latent issues we might be unaware of. To our pleasant surprise we found everything in great, dry, clean shape. All the styrofoam was in good shape for being stored away for the past 21 years! A little dusty styrofoam chafe, but not mold! We took the opportunity to spritz the hull surfaces and styrofoam with a 10% bleach solution and Lysol spray while the opportunity presented it self.

Some of what we nie about the loose (but captured) styrofoam pieces was the ability to relatively easily remove it!
This is as opposed to other boats where to get back to the hull interior one has to chisel away t the poured in expanding foam materials which also bond to the fiberglass surfaces (and everything else it comes into contact with🫣…personal experiences).
We view the removable foam pieces as a beneficial foresight gift from Rodger in that were any hull repairs or routing be need in the flotation chambers the styrofoam is a whole lot easier to contend with. Just remove it to a large plastic bag, vacuum the dust, do the work and then replace and close up the securement hatch.

Just our experience is all. We haven’t yet found the need for available storage to bean issue as yet, but then we haven’t cruised as extensively as you and others have.

The spaces under the dinette/benches/aft berth (pizza oven ) has been more than sufficient so far on our journeys.
The space we find sorta in un-useful for storage are the ceiling pockets on either side of the aft berth area. No matter how many times I’ve tried to hold things up in those areas gravity seems to win and things fall back down…hence why we will probably add styrofoam flotation blocks to these spaces.

I gues all the time I spent with EMS as a medic and SAR (and as a Boy Scout) helping others out of their predicaments has made me more pre-emotive in my planning and mitigation planning. Being a former multidisciplinary design/project/failure analysis engineer may be also an influence on my perspective as well…. I tend to be a “Plan for the Worst, Hope for the Best” sort after a fashion. A glass half full perspective .

Your boat, your rules!

Best Regards
Over Easy

[Chumpy36]

Anyone have opinions as to whether play pit balls might provide more floatation? And be less mess and won’t absorb water?

Thx

Yeah, I tried it. In the bow compartment under the V-berth.

I had to remove most of the original styrofoam because of mold issues. The ball pit balls are OK, but there's a lot of empty air between the balls. I didn't really think that the ratio of cost to flotation was worth it. So now I just use empty gallon jugs instead. Windshield washer fluid, antifreeze, etc. It works better when they're square-ish.

I've stuffed the bilges full of these jugs to offset all the additional gear we have. In the rear berth, the jugs help solidify the fiberglass floor sheet, so it moves and creacks much less as you move around on it. I know that flotation down low carries its own capsize risk if the boat is filling with water, but I've accepted that. Dual high-capacity bilge pumps help me sleep at night. Plus, the jugs in the bilges will cause any water that is getting into the bilges to show up on the cabin floor sooner.

Do the empty jugs make a lot of noise? That would make me crazy. Thx!