Ballast valve does not close - 26s

[JamesToBoot]

Building up the seat, then align-grinding it true is another approach.

...

the seat area surround looked like it had been scuffed up a bit, so I was thinking the seat might need some attention as well.

...

Thats another possible approach.

Actually I don't know if I've made it to your mods pages yet. You have over 2k posts and I don't think I've gotten that far into the 'mods and repairs' threads... I'm on the 8th page and working my way down.

[JamesToBoot]

...
JamesToBoot,
I'd agree with Jimmy regarding the tenderness of your boat. It's going to be a bit more tender than his or mine but coming from your dinghy pedigree I think you will be quite comfortable. I met up with an "S" owner at an event once and he was very happy with his boat. He only had three or possibly four on board (can't remember how many children) but he had sailed more than 20 miles in the open Gulf to get to where I met him. He was also noticeably faster than I was even though I was single-handed.

You are going to have fun!

I am looking forward to it very much. It will be cool to see some of you on Lake Murray.

[Be Free]

Jimmy,
You sound like you've lapped valves before.

You have a keen sense of deduction, Bill. I’m impressed.
Lucky to grow up with a dad and uncle that worked on stuff. I was “helping” my dad build a ford flathead v8 while I was still in diapers.

Same here. You can learn an awful lot while holding a flashlight.

[JamesToBoot]

Went with half inch neoprene foam and contact cement:

[Be Free]

Looking forward to your next report. Hoping it fixes the problem!

[JamesToBoot]

Looking forward to your next report. Hoping it fixes the problem!

Thanks for the encouragement.

I think the half inch foam was overkill. The quarter inch would have been fine. Neoprene foam is good stuff. The foam was much nicer than I expected... No squished pieces or lazy cutting; it was all uniform. Waiting for the glue to dry.

Having it all together and in my hands, I'm sure it will be great. The gap was less than 1/8 inch. Probably more like 1/16th. But it was enough to cause a flood. This will shurely fix our leak.

[Jimmyt]

Looks good!

[JamesToBoot]

Been a rough weekend. Sorry for the delay. Body breaking down. Prayers needed.

I was able to get out a bit yesterday to get the valve installed and a half gallon of water dumped down the inspection hole(some of which made it into the holes of the valve), and today to get a couple inches w the garden hose..
-with light pressure on the tightening nut, I saw no water under the boat today.
-while under the boat poking at the valve, I got two drops in 5 minutes. Noticed the neoprene foam was damp.
-I tightened the tightening a little more and saw no drops(still not hand tight)

Shows the thickness of the half inch of neoprene foam vs the gasket (which is quite thick) while tightened lightly:


From an angle showing how much its still resessed even while lightly tightened:

[Be Free]

Looks like you have a winner. No drops would be nice but the occasional drop of water is not going to make a difference in your tank level.

What's next?

[JamesToBoot]

No drops would be nice but the occasional drop of water is not going to make a difference in your tank level.

Thanks for confirming. I didn't think less than a drop a minute would make a difference. Good to hear my thoughts vetted in the yay.

Ive been working on some electrical here and there between other things... but the short list is mast then lake test for the ballast. Both will be other threads.

Question that keeps coming up....? How are guys tracking your water ballast? How do you know if you're low?
-Do you check it every hour while you're on the water?
-Did you install a gauge?
-Are you confident in the valve/valves (I know most of you on the newer models have two valves) that you don't check after you put in the vent plug?

[Be Free]

No drops would be nice but the occasional drop of water is not going to make a difference in your tank level.

Thanks for confirming. I didn't think less than a drop a minute would make a difference. Good to hear my thoughts vetted in the yay.

Ive been working on some electrical here and there between other things... but the short list is mast then lake test for the ballast. Both will be other threads.

Question that keeps coming up....? How are guys tracking your water ballast? How do you know if you're low?
-Do you check it every hour while you're on the water?
-Did you install a gauge?
-Are you confident in the valve/valves (I know most of you on the newer models have two valves) that you don't check after you put in the vent plug?

On the X the ballast level can be checked through the vent hole. When the boat is level and the tank is full the water will be just below the top of the vent.

Some have installed mechanical or electrical sensors. Even if I had one I'd still probably continue to check the level "by finger" before hoisting the sails.

[JamesToBoot]

On the X the ballast level can be checked through the vent hole. When the boat is level and the tank is full the water will be just below the top of the vent.

Some have installed mechanical or electrical sensors. Even if I had one I'd still probably continue to check the level "by finger" before hoisting the sails.

Im thinking, just from my reading of the forum and vids, that each 26 has some sort of vent hole to check by finger.

All 26 are filled w am underwater valve and are filled via the boats weight in the water... and to check the level you need to be flat/level/not on heel. In order to check it again, you must first come back to a flat/level/not on heal. In that case, the same amount of water that could be forced out by heeling could also have come back in once you stopped heeling? At least thats what I would gather.

So the question is, what gives you confidence that you haven't missed something and that nothing has broken?
-is it soley experience (it worked reliably previously, so it should continue working?
-is it confidence in the product and theory behind the product if fool-proof?
-is it a degree in fluid dynamices engineering?

The attempt here is to gain experience from your experience (as I don't have any yet w a water ballast). I have read carefully the threads, news, and articles on boats that have sunk (testiment to the product and engineering that there are so few after so many boats made and so many years of use). All appear to be a mix of several errors on the users part and all appear to be failures of the user to be sure the ballast was full.

So what do you do to have confidence

[tuxonpup]

We have the original X design, so this is pretty easy for us. Remove the step, pull out the vent plug and water will immediately brim over the edge of the hole if you're full. The original X design has a hole in the bottom of the boat right under the step to fill the ballast tank. Looking in the bilges you can see the ballast passages are all below the water line, so if you loosen the long bolt holding the ballast stopper in the bottom of the boat, it's gonna flood those passages until the water reaches the high point above water line under the step. As the seals dry out and fail, you no longer have the option of running unballasted, it will always be filling, so you have to be sure not to go anywhere until it's filled to the top. It won't empty with the rear ballast valve closed, just never move until it's completely full or you're sure it's empty and water tight. 700# of loose ballast in a 1400# tank is a recipe for a tippy canoe.

[JamesToBoot]

We have the original X design, so this is pretty easy for us. Remove the step, pull out the vent plug and water will immediately brim over the edge of the hole if you're full. The original X design has a hole in the bottom of the boat right under the step to fill the ballast tank. Looking in the bilges you can see the ballast passages are all below the water line, so if you loosen the long bolt holding the ballast stopper in the bottom of the boat, it's gonna flood those passages until the water reaches the high point above water line under the step. As the seals dry out and fail, you no longer have the option of running unballasted, it will always be filling, so you have to be sure not to go anywhere until it's filled to the top. It won't empty with the rear ballast valve closed, just never move until it's completely full or you're sure it's empty and water tight. 700# of loose ballast in a 1400# tank is a recipe for a tippy canoe.

Thanks Tux, that's good info.

Can you explain 'Looking in the bilges you can see the ballast passages are all below the water line...'

Also, if your seals are failing and letting water in, they could also let water out? Are our boats designed in such a way that a leaky seal is well within the margin of error?

[OverEasy]

Hi JamesToBoot!

As most folks already know ALL of the MacGregor designed boats with water ballasting are to be only operated with the water ballast FULL or EMPTY. None of MacGregor water ballasted boats were ever designed to be operated with any form of partial water ballast.

Whenever operating as a sail boat the water ballast is supposed to be full.
Whenever operating as a motor vessel, such as for Mac26X and Mac26M, one has the option to operate only with the ballast full or empty.

From a Design Engineering perspective there are some very real problems with a sloshing mass of water as ballast in a boat.
So it very good that you have been diligent in fixing your ballast control valve to make sure it does not leak.

When one thinks the ballast is empty and there is a leaky ballast valve water can gradually migrate into the ballast tank.
Combine that with a ballast tank vent valve that is working to seal the tank and one can have a recipe for water leaking in until the the trapped air pressure limits the incoming water which results in a partially filled water ballast tank.
The partially filled ballast tank will allow the partially filled volume of water to slosh which can dramatically change the vessel’s center of gravity from one side to the other and from fore to aft depending upon the position of the boat. There will inherently be a slight delay as the water moves in the tank which can exacerbate the problem. In some extreme cases one might incur a dynamic surge or ram effect which would increase stresses within the water ballast tank as well as pulling the center of gravity to the down sloped side without the intended counter balancing effect that a full ballast tank would have provided.

The issue might seem annoying on a motor/sail boat on calm water but add some rough weather and things can change rapidly possibly past annoying to maybe more than concerning.

Similarly if one starts with a full ballast tank then heels to one side with a leaky vent valve then the water will gradually drain from the ballast tank. Then when one changes tack the now reduced volume of water will slosh to the other side and not provide the expected ballast function. The other thing that occurs as ballast water drains is the ballast function diminishes and for a given set of operating conditions the heel angle will continually increase. The reduction in ballast also make the vessel more susceptible to reacting adversely to gust and waves.

When a vessel is in a pitching motion as when passing over cresting waves the shifting of a partially filled water ballast can really get very interesting! Coming up the wave the hull points up at the bow and the partial water ballast shifts aft further raising the bow. After getting over the wave the bow pitches downward and the partial water ballast shifts forward which now drops the bow further which then delays the bow from rising to climb over the next wave. The out of sync lead/lag cycle of shifting partial water ballast exacerbates the pitching motion and can lead to stuffing the bow into the next wave. Not a condition one would really want to incur….

Having a leaky water ballast valve isn’t a condition to ignore or dismiss lightly.

I’m really glad that you have resolved this for you and your family!

Best Regards,
Over Easy