Origo Alcohol Stove Question

[normo]

I posted this on another thread but suggest everyone be aware of the downside of propane inside the boat:

My boat came with a Kenyon KISS propane stove. It uses a small paint spray sized can of propane. I knew it had to go but I did use it a few times before I found a replacement on ebay. The last time I used it the can didn't seat properly. It made a hissing sound so I immediately pulled it out. I fiddled with the gasket, waited a minute or so and reinserted it. Seemed ok so I lit it up.

I expected flames from the burner but wasn't prepared to see a large plume eminating from the sink for a brief second or two. Apparently the propane from that short duration leak found its way into the sink. To read about this possiblilty is one thing. To see it first hand is quite another.

I don't ever plan to use propane inside the boat again. The replacement Origo alcohol stove works fine.

PS Imagine what would have happened if a leak had gone unnoticed and allowed all of the contents of this very small can of propane to settle in the boat?

BTW I paid $80 on ebay for a like new Origo. Yes, cooking with alcohol takes a little longer but so far I haven't given it a second thought. Spilling a quart of alcohol makes less mess than rupturing a quart of oil or many other items we routinely carry on our boats.

Trusting your safety to a zip lock bag or a $3 can of propane made by the lowest cost vendor does not seem prudent to me unless all the cooking and fuel storage is done topsides. I subscribe to the adage "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

Safe cooking.

[Catigale]

BTW I paid $80 on ebay for a like new Origo. Yes, cooking with alcohol takes a little longer but so far I haven't given it a second thought. Spilling a quart of alcohol makes less mess than rupturing a quart of oil or many other items we routinely carry on our boats.

Trusting your safety to a zip lock bag or a $3 can of propane made by the lowest cost vendor does not seem prudent to me unless all the cooking and fuel storage is done topsides. I subscribe to the adage "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".

This is a bit of a rehash, but both of these fuels belong topside imho.

Alcohol is still dangerous as an explosion hazard, and the vapour will settle in your bilge. I would also argue that it is more likely to get punctured and leak than a propane cylinder.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

You forget a few KEY differences.

First, propane only requires a spark to ignite. Alcohol will NOT ingite with just a spark. Alcohol requires an open flame to ignite and as my wife will attest, can be hard to light even with a open flame. There is a much bigger chance of a spark happening in the bilge, than there is of an open flame down there.

Second, propane is stored under pressure. This makes it flow out rapidly at the slightest release of the tank valve. Alcohol (at least in the Origo type of stove) is not pressurized in any way. It takes a deliberate action to spill it in the bilge.

Still, I store my spare plastic containers of alcohol out in the fuel lockers where any spills can drain overboard. I store my propane for the BBQ in a rack on the transom so it too is safe. I only fill the Origo canisters topsides, preferably on shore. The alcohol that is below is in non-pressurized stainless steel canisters in the stove. They are at least as pucture resistant as any propane canister.

Alcohol has a reputation built over centuries as the safest fuel to use on board, but as with any combustible fuel must still be treated with care.

[Compromise]

We bought our 02 X without a stove. We had the alcohol stove on our previous boat and I agree with some of the posts, it does seem to last a long time. We are in the midst of shopping for a stove for the X. My wife has mentioned a small butane or propane camper type stove.
Yesterday she arrived home from shopping and came up with another option... a $30 microwave. We mainly just overnight and may purchase a small stove/grill for longer trips.
Interesting topic will be watching for more opinions

[Chip Hindes]

a $30 microwave.

For most uses, not a viable option unless you're always hooked up to shore power.

Even a small microwave, say 700W cooking power, with fan and light will draw 800-1000W continuous. To run it off your batteries, a small DC to AC inverter from WalMart won't handle that kind of power; you'll need a medium sized one. Even a cheap one with 900-1000W of AC power will run upwards of $100; for a power draw like that you should have a dedicated circuit with high power fuse or circuit breaker wired straight to the battery. Definitely not the low priced option.

But wait, it gets worse. A typical 50HP outboard alternator will put out 100-150W. Round numbers, for every minute you run the microwave, you'll have to run your outboard ten minutes to recharge the battery.

Want to run your outboard ten minutes for a cup of hot tea?

If you are always hooked up to shore power, nuke away. Otherwise, the only reasonable way to remain self sufficient is to cook with fuel, not electricity.

[Moe]

But wait, it gets worse. A typical 50HP outboard alternator will put out 100-150W. Round numbers, for every minute you run the microwave, you'll have to run your outboard ten minutes to recharge the battery.

I've run the numbers for the 90A draw of an inverter powered 600W cooking power microwave on a single battery and that's not too far off from exact. Figure about 2 amp-hours of battery capacity per minute of operation. Creating heat from electricity instead of fuel combustion isn't a good idea when off the grid. Dockside, it's fine.

[Compromise]

[qWant to run your outboard ten minutes for a cup of hot tea?

uote]
Good info, thanks for looking into this. We figured the Micro would be mainly used dockside while hooked to power. However, the numbers had me wondering.......how much power does say, a TV and DVD player use? The only other drain would be from the GPS and radio for monitoring.
We do use the TV and DVD while underway if the little ones get antsy sometimes. [/quote]

[Moe]

The best way to determine how much various electrical loads draw is to use a meter.

If you have a multimeter that has a healthy current capability, say 10-20 amps, you can just put it in series with the particular load you want to measure. Doing this with a 12VDC system isn't difficult. To do it with 120VAC, I have a homemade extension cord with an electrical box on the end that houses a single duplex outlet. There are two banana plug jacks on the side, one running to the neutral side of the receptacle and the other running to the neutral line in the cord. This lets me plug the multimeter in series with the load, using meter leads with banana plugs on the ends. Knowing the amp draw, you can ESTIMATE the amp-hours used over a particular time.

With a good amp-hour meter, such as the Link 10, formerly the eMeter and now replaced by the Xantrex Battery Monitor, you can directly read the amp-hours used. These meters not only read instantaeous current draw, but also integrate it over time.

[Tom Spohn]

Here is a useful calculator:

http://www.xantrex.com/support/howlong.asp

[Frank C]

Here is a useful calculator:
http://www.xantrex.com/support/howlong.asp

I am the original electricity dunce, so Tom's calculator is pretty interesting for me. However, there's still an issue with converting household appliances. I rigged up a set of Labtec computer speakers on my 26X for my MP3 player, but I've been amazed at how quickly they can draw down the battery.

The speakers were driven by a a circuit board and 14v transformer inside the sub-woofer, tailing-out to a 110v lamp cord. I figured it was a poor choice to run them thru an inverter, so I just cut the transformer's output wires and crimped them directly into the boat's 12v system. The sound is great, but it only runs about 4 hours before killing the batteries!

I don't remember the wattage of the 110v speaker system, so Tom's calculator won't tell me how long a 75 aH battery should survive, but empirically, it's about 4 hours. I definitely need to find some more efficient speakers! Anyone having better luck running a set of powered speakers for MP3 music ???

P.S. - I just noticed this is a Stove thread ... not sure why I'm asking about electricity here.
Sorry - maybe a move is in order!