More Honda woes. (Different, but related to previous rant)

[msshene]

I feel for you, you are caught in the middle of a big mess. I personally would go after the Honda area or regional manager and go up the ladder till someone replaced my motor. They are way to expensive to be giving the service you have received. Let Honda (the company) deal with this Wood dealer and their poor service. I would be very persistant and not touch anything else on the engine, let the rep view the quality of the work the Wood has done and just hold your hands up.

Good luck, Mike

[Paul S]

I feel for you, you are caught in the middle of a big mess. I personally would go after the Honda area or regional manager and go up the ladder till someone replaced my motor. They are way to expensive to be giving the service you have received. Let Honda (the company) deal with this Wood dealer and their poor service. I would be very persistant and not touch anything else on the engine, let the rep view the quality of the work the Wood has done and just hold your hands up.

Good luck, Mike

The motor has no warranty as it is for the Canadian market.

Paul

[richandlori]

I actually don't know what to say! As an owner of the SAME motor, but a USA version, I can't express my horror and anger if I was to remove the cover on my engine and see photos such as yours. I typically have a strong dislike for attorneys, until I need one and this my good friend is that case. I would make a very simple DEMAND of my dealer that sold me the engine:

Make it right within 1 week, or we will let the legal system settle it!

You have to keep us updated and we all express our condolonces for your aparent heart ache!

Rich

[Mark Prouty]

Paul,

Your boat has been a rip-off from the beginning.

My questions. Did you make a deal with the devil? Did you get a seemingly new 26M with a 50 hp Honda for an exceptionally cheap price? Did you know this was a Canadian motor with no warranty? Is there something about your purchase we don't know about? How could you not know this motor had no warranty?

I'm thinking of a deal I made with a body shop once. The body shop owner agreed to pull a dent out of a door instead of putting in a new one that the insurance covered. In exchange, he would fix some rust. I agreed. The rust fix lasted about 6 months.

The reason I ask these questions is because I look at those motor pictures and cringe. What I see is considerable financial loss even if you win a court battle. My boat represents a sense of freedom of adventure to me. I have invested dreams, money and time in it. I'm either working on my boat dreaming of adventures to come or out in it experiencing the adventure.

I know your boat represents similar things. I have seen what a beautiful boat you have and the wonderful things you have done to fix it up.

Please tell me you made a deal with the devil.

[Paul S]

Paul,

Your boat has been a rip-off from the beginning.

My questions. Did you make a deal with the devil? Did you get a seemingly new 26M with a 50 hp Honda for an exceptionally cheap price? Did you know this was a Canadian motor with no warranty? Is there something about your purchase we don't know about? How could you not know this motor had no warranty?
.....
Please tell me you made a deal with the devil.

The purchase price was very good. Deal was we bought a boat he had in stock. boat turned out to have a lot more serious cosmetic flaws. He gave us a newly delivered boat instead, no additional cost. Also delivered the boat into our driveway (MA) from PA. He also let us use his demo boat in FL for a week. So yes, we got a good deal IMO.

I did not know we bought a Canadian Honda motor. Even last year, Wood mentioned he had a hard time getting the water pump because it was different than the ones they normally use. Woods mentioned the motor was 'Canadian' last year. I took that as being made in Canada...not made for the Canadian market.

I even went as far as calling Honda USA to order a service manual.. but did not have the motor # at the time..then I forgot about ordering the manual...hey..it's a Honda...what can go wrong??? So, again, I, nor my wife, had any idea it was a Canadian Honda model. It was never disclosed to us, verbally or in writing. Actually I never knew there was a company Honda Canada til last week!

I called Honda USA a second time before taking delivery, to inquire about the warranty...again, they asked for the motor #. Again, I did not have it yet, they said to call back with it and they would discuss the warranty, etc. I never called back. My bad.

The first time I realized there was no Honda USA warranty was last week at Wood, when the owner told me outright there is no warranty through Honda USA. I mentioned that to Havencraft. He said there is a warranty...through Havencraft.

Havencraft did make good on the waterpump repair last year...although still accusing me of running the motor dry...They did not, however, take care of the shift linkage problem last week, which IMO, should have been covered.

I left a message with Havencraft today after I took the pictures. I was so lit up when I got that cover off. You have no idea...I hope Havencraft will redeem themselves with this repair. All I want is a new cover and gasket...Not even the labor...I will do it myself. I just dont want to drive another hr each way to Wood. That is almost a tank of premium gas in the landrover for 2 round trips.

Other than the oil leak (now) the motor runs OK. No complaints other than the stall from time to time. I think that is due more with the carb motor. Next motor will be EFi.

Paul

[cbhinkel]

That looks like residual engine overheating damage to me. The metal spacers on the valvecover conducted the heat from the head to the proximal area that they are located and melted that spot. Also, you other picture looks to be of a generally deformed valve cover as well. You might need to get a new valve cover to be 100% fixed here. In reality, this would still be a part of that warranty claim with your water pump impeller/overheating problem. Feel free to waste you time to try to get that acknowledged as such! You're lucky you didn't sieze a piston or warp the head!

I've been watching this general situation for about a week+ now and would like to comment. Some of your Honda problems are truly related to your compromised third party interactions with Havencraft and Woods. I would be pi$$ed as anything if I found out I was sold a Canadian motor with the implied purchase of an American product. That's IMHO fraudulent mis-representation, and I'm curious just how much savings that Havencraft passed along to their customers for doing this. FYI - I bought a brand new Canadian BF50 in 2001 that was $4500 delivered to my door in SoCal. Secondly, Woods sucks a$$, and I would not have absolutely anything to do with them anymore if I was you. Write that whole situation as a sunk cost and find a new Honda outboard service center ASAP.

Hondas are a good product and have been consistently impressed with their obvious quality when I've been performing my own outboard modifications and servicing. However, I have mentioned this time and time again to my friends that own these motors, the impeller and the carbs are their Achilles heel. I try to use only use a 35gal garbage can to flush the motor with alittle added "Salt Away". The water level has to be 4"+ above the seam from where the lower unit drops away to ensure the impeller never runs dry. Also, due to the periodic use of ther motors on our sailboats, the fuel line needs to be unplugged from the motor (when not in use ) to prevent the carbs from gumming up. These two added bothers can almost guarantee the Honda outboard ownership to be trouble free.

Good luck!
-Chris

[PeteC]

cbhinkel

You mentioned that "the fuel line needs to be unplugged from the motor (when not in use ) to prevent the carbs from gumming up".

Don't you need to run the engine until the carbs run dry after you unplug the fuel line?

How long does it take to run dry?

Also, I use the ear muffs when I flush, which is after every use (in salt water). I get water running through the system and out the pee hole. I assume I am not damaging the engine while doing this. Is this correct?

Thanks

[Paul S]

That looks like residual engine overheating damage to me. The metal spacers on the valvecover conducted the heat from the head to the proximal area that they are located and melted that spot. Also, you other picture looks to be of a generally deformed valve cover as well. You might need to get a new valve cover to be 100% fixed here. In reality, this would still be a part of that warranty claim with your water pump impeller/overheating problem. Feel free to waste you time to try to get that acknowledged as such! You're lucky you didn't sieze a piston or warp the head!

I've been watching this general situation for about a week+ now and would like to comment. Some of your Honda problems are truly related to your compromised third party interactions with Havencraft and Woods. I would be pi$$ed as anything if I found out I was sold a Canadian motor with the implied purchase of an American product. That's IMHO fraudulent mis-representation, and I'm curious just how much savings that Havencraft passed along to their customers for doing this. FYI - I bought a brand new Canadian BF50 in 2001 that was $4500 delivered to my door in SoCal. Secondly, Woods sucks a$$, and I would not have absolutely anything to do with them anymore if I was you. Write that whole situation as a sunk cost and find a new Honda outboard service center ASAP.

Hondas are a good product and have been consistently impressed with their obvious quality when I've been performing my own outboard modifications and servicing. However, I have mentioned this time and time again to my friends that own these motors, the impeller and the carbs are their Achilles heel. I try to use only use a 35gal garbage can to flush the motor with alittle added "Salt Away". The water level has to be 4"+ above the seam from where the lower unit drops away to ensure the impeller never runs dry. Also, due to the periodic use of ther motors on our sailboats, the fuel line needs to be unplugged from the motor (when not in use ) to prevent the carbs from gumming up. These two added bothers can almost guarantee the Honda outboard ownership to be trouble free.

Good luck!
-Chris

The valve cover is toast, there is no way it can seal. I would say the plastic goop was done at the factory. I can not prove that Wood did this. If they did do it when they serviced it for the overheating problem...then that is the saddest workmanship I have seen in a loooong time.

The overheat/water pump problem was not covered under 'warranty'. Havencraft picked up the bill on that.

I did get a good price on the motor, so I can't complain there, but it would have been better if I knew what I was buying at the time.

Paul

[DLT]

I bet a jury of your peers would think it reasonable to assume that the Honda motor they bought in the USA was covered by a Honda USA warranty...

[mike]

I bet a jury of your peers would think it reasonable to assume that the Honda motor they bought in the USA was covered by a Honda USA warranty...

Same here. I wonder if there was any sort of disclaimer signed by Paul during the purchase. He comes across as the kind of person who likely would scrutinize any document before signing it, but it could have been written (intentionally or not) in a way that did not make it totally obvious, maybe even just a line on the invoice under the motor... "warrantied by Havencraft against manufacturers defects" or something like that.

Here's a prediction... Wood will say that the distorted valve cover, oil leak, etc., were all caused by the customer pulling the cover off himself, and that all that black goop was slopped on there by him out of desperation to try and get his motor put back together successfully. The motor was fine until he started messing with it (same as that peskly little shift linkage that he screwed with).

By the way, this has me wondering... what is the relationship between Wood and Havencraft? If Havencraft is warrantying the motor, but Wood is doing the work, do they have some sort of agreement / business relationship? Or are they totally unconnected, and Havencraft simply pays the bill that Wood sends them for "warranty" work? In other words, it seems odd that Wood would be so adamant that the motor is fine when it obviously isn't... if they simply acknowledged that there is indeed an oil leak, bad valve cover & gasket, etc., and stood with the customer's viewpoint that this is a warranty repair situation, they'd get to fix it and get paid for the work by Havencraft. Why would they so stubbornly insist that it's all Paul's fault and is not a warranty issue?

Is there some sort of collaboration between these two companies?

--Mike

[Paul S]

I bet a jury of your peers would think it reasonable to assume that the Honda motor they bought in the USA was covered by a Honda USA warranty...

Same here. I wonder if there was any sort of disclaimer signed by Paul during the purchase. He comes across as the kind of person who likely would scrutinize any document before signing it, but it could have been written (intentionally or not) in a way that did not make it totally obvious, maybe even just a line on the invoice under the motor... "warrantied by Havencraft against manufacturers defects" or something like that.

Here's a prediction... Wood will say that the distorted valve cover, oil leak, etc., were all caused by the customer pulling the cover off himself, and that all that black goop was slopped on there by him out of desperation to try and get his motor put back together successfully. The motor was fine until he started messing with it (same as that peskly little shift linkage that he screwed with).

By the way, this has me wondering... what is the relationship between Wood and Havencraft? If Havencraft is warrantying the motor, but Wood is doing the work, do they have some sort of agreement / business relationship? Or are they totally unconnected, and Havencraft simply pays the bill that Wood sends them for "warranty" work? In other words, it seems odd that Wood would be so adamant that the motor is fine when it obviously isn't... if they simply acknowledged that there is indeed an oil leak, bad valve cover & gasket, etc., and stood with the customer's viewpoint that this is a warranty repair situation, they'd get to fix it and get paid for the work by Havencraft. Why would they so stubbornly insist that it's all Paul's fault and is not a warranty issue?

Is there some sort of collaboration between these two companies?

--Mike

The only thing with our signatures on it were the bill of sales for the boat and trailer. The only thing it said was honda bf50 motor. No serial#, no warranty language, etc.

From what I know, and could be wrong, Wood has no relationship with Havencraft directly. Wood was quite surprised the motor was Canadian! From what I assume, Havencraft will pay for warranty work to Wood. Havencraft mentioned they might buy motors from Wood at some time. I assume to service the New England market.

I am afraid to bring it to wood and (again) have them blame me for f*cking with the motor because I took the cover off. I just figure..no warranty, I have nothing to lose at this point. I actually thought that the cover just needed to be torqued down (see post earlier yesterday)...until I took a close look at that goop crap. I knew the cover had to come off and remove the goop. Then I saw the deformed cover..and that goop is impossible to remove. Hard as rock. It is toast.

One thing is virtually guaranteed..Wood will NEVER admit they repaired the cover(poorly). I am not sure if it was repaired at the factory or at wood. But, based on past experience, Wood won't cover the cost of it regardless.

Paul

[cbhinkel]

You really don't need to run the engine dry (even though I do) to prevent the carbs from guming-up. A couple of Tblsps of gas won't create this problem. It's when you keep the fuel line attached and the gas tank vent closed that this occurs. During a hot day, the gas tank pressurizes and constently pushes more fuel into the outboard which eventually evaporates into the carb's venturi. After a month or two of this cycle, a couple of gallons of gas is mysteriously gone and your Honda outboard won't run anymore. When running the engine dry, it takes a couple of minutes with the engine running on one cylinder for about half of that time.

The problem when using earmuffs is that people in general don't know how to use them correctly with the Honda outboard. They have to be sealed properly and flowing a good amount of water. You're surely going to get squirted to get this to occur! Even then, it takes several seconds for the impeller to prime, which during this time it's running dry. When earmuffs are used improperly, the outboard could be running alot longer with a dry impeller. If there is no water coming out of the peehole, then you're asking for it. My garbage can approach ensures the impeller never runs dry.

-Chris

cbhinkel

You mentioned that "the fuel line needs to be unplugged from the motor (when not in use ) to prevent the carbs from gumming up".

Don't you need to run the engine until the carbs run dry after you unplug the fuel line?

How long does it take to run dry?

Also, I use the ear muffs when I flush, which is after every use (in salt water). I get water running through the system and out the pee hole. I assume I am not damaging the engine while doing this. Is this correct?

Thanks

[mike]

Chris, you may want to ease up on the garbage can stuff... we don't want to give Paul any ideas to do something that he may later come to regret.

--Mike

[DLT]

Yeah, and Havencraft will likely say that you caused the damage by running it dry and overheating it...

They will also likely say that all that goop was put there by you, or someone else, after you overheated it and they can't be responsible for that...

I'd look closely at the paperwork you have, from both Havencraft and Woods.

You bought a Honda motor in the USA, and without some sort of acknowledgement, I'd say Havencraft owes you a Honda USA motor... I'm not a lawyer and don't know what MA laws says, but it sure sounds like fraud to me...

If you have a service ticket that says anything about checking for oil leaks, and Woods didn't spot that mess, then that sounds like negligence to me... Also, since they fixed the water pump impeller, they surely had the cover off at that time and should have seen it then. hull, they probably slopped all that goop on there...

If it were me, I'd get that motor fixed somewhere other than Woods. You have to get it fixed anyway and you sure don't want those bozos touching it again... Then, send them both copies of the bill with a letter describing your position (with supporting evidence - the photos) asking for reimbursement within 30 days.

When you don't get it, the next thing I'd do is file a small claims case against Woods, in Woods' county. I'd demand whatever it took to get it fixed, plus any money already paid to Woods for the water pump repair and diagnosing the oil leak. I'd ask for the $75 charge for fixing the linkage too...

If all that adds up to more than the Small Claims limit, then you can cap it at the limit. Alternatively, you are not required to have a lawyer for regular court proceedings either. But, the pleadings, court rules, and procedures are much more formal...

If nothing else, it would likely be cheaper for them to just settle with you, rather than go to court over this...

From your postings, it sounds like Woods is simply not reliable or trustworthy. If they didn't make that mess, they sure should have spotted it... I don't know how close another dealer is, but I can't see ever wanting to use them again. So, I wouldn't be too worried about buring that bridge...

If you don't get anything out of Woods, your "next-in-line" is Havencraft. I'd make sure they understand that I intend to tell my story to anyone who will listen (or read)... He'll rebutt you, like he did here... But, you already know what he has to say, so you can cover that first in your initial postings...

Besides, you can always go the small claims court route with him too. Since he delivered the boat to you, you might even be able to use your courts. The idea being that since he already covered the water pump repair, he'd have a hard time explaining how the damage caused by the water pump failure wasn't also "covered"...

You can try to assert the expectation of a Honda USA motor, but that would likely be above the Small Claims limit and that's probably more than you really need out of him at this point. It would sure be a good think to hang over his head to get this matter settled...

[mike]

Actually, I think he should go after both Wood and Havencraft simultaneously. There are two separate issues here... the USA vs. Canada motor thing (Havencraft) and the repair negligence / blindness (Wood).

--Mike