Genoa only sailing single handed

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

mighetto wrote: Following excerpts ....
... I laugh at the description of the X as tender. I have had mine
out in 45 MPH winds full main and half retracted Genoa
... :o :o :o
....... Right - you betcha!! :D

... the gybing forward foil really do make the vessel an exceptional pointer. ...
Right! ..... :D :D

... The CDI furler is an advanced furler for boats of 30 foot or less. I did upgrade the ball bearings but you need to rethink your dislike of this brand. It is a good one.
Right! ..... :D :D :D

... These boats do 17 MPH under sail and are performance vessels ...
Still waiting to see Murrelet in this movie!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

... I didn't want a luff cover as part of the sail. The UK loft did it anyway. ...
So you finally got a good UK foresail (even though Roger's Genoa is superb). :wink:

... During this training you likely were taught to close your mind to advanced designs.
:D :D :D :D :D

... Bethwait 4th mode sailing is useful on this design.
You can learn only one mode of sailing on lesser designed sailboats.
:D :D :D :D :D :D

//s// Frank L. Mighetto.


FM - you're a scream. :)
Without a doubt, an absolute & certified, certifiable scream~!
C'mon ... fess up ... Anarchy booted you again, eh?
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ALX357
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Post by ALX357 »

Hey, come back here with my thread :x
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Jeff S
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Post by Jeff S »

This turned into defend the Mac X thread with crazy assertions. Frank rebutted well, I had to avert my gaze from the train wreck.

I had my boat in 60-70 knot winds on a 2100 mile voyage. I furled the Genny and had no mainsail up. I even lowered the mast to reduce windage. She steered ok even with the rudders up. Ballast was out! The X did wonderfully in that wind, the only damage was the wind lifted up one of my 2 flexible solar panels on the sliding hatch and mangled it. Maybe I should have unfurled the Genny a bit and had the main up full, they must be stronger than I imagined! Oh yeah, the wind finally died down and then I unhitched it from my truck.
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Post by Catigale »

I spend most of my Mac weekends motoring upwind on the Hudson about 5 - 10 miles, then drifting back home on the genny only downwind..it is nice to not worry about the main in the cockpit and 9 year old ponytails in blocks, etc.

On pointing up (always a problem with Macs) I had a brainstorm the other day...the problem with the genny is you cant sheet it in tight f'ward of the the shrouds, and its a pain to keep resheeting it from closehauled to reaching around the shrouds.


:idea:

WHy dont I double sheet it and put one on the cockpit track for reaching, and the other sheet forward of shrouds to the jib track *I have both* for being hard onto the wind??

:?:
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Jeff S
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Post by Jeff S »

When it gets windier and I am with my kids I sail Genny only often. It sails fine this way. It moves the boat ok and heels less, easy to single hand. Pointing, as mentioned, is a bit worse.

Adding a second set of sheets on the Genny might work, I had never considered that. The sail getting fouled on the shrouds would be the limiting factor there I think. It would still sheet in more in any case. I have a jib that does noticeably better upwind than the Genny when it is windier. Changing it on the furler while sailing is a bit of a pain, so a second set of sheets might be an answer. Has anyone tried that?
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

I've never double-sheeted my Genoa, but it's a fairly common technique ... (sorry Steve, no inventor's credit); but must admit that I've been considering the same idea too. It will help employ my Genoa more effectively in our frequent heavy air. I'm also considering another idea mentioned in these pages ... adding tracks to the outboard cabintop. That would be useful for the jib too, but especially useful for heavy winds with a reefed Genny (also shopping ebay for some ball-bearing jib cars to run on those outboard tracks).

I'm also considering your idea of a quick-release at the base of the furler. It would obviously help with pinning the forestay. Further, my UK genoa is a deck-sweeper, so that the coaming tracks don't provide enough downforce to the leech. Lifting the Genoa tack by 8 inches might help that problem too. Unfortunately, I'm certain that the forestay will no longer fit the Genoa's luff if I cut it by 8 inches .... meaning that I'll need to raise the hound (wonder if 8 inches is too far above the shrouds?).

Anyway .... can't let that job-jar run dry, eh? :)
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They Theirs
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Post by They Theirs »

A partially Furled genoa provides somewhat poor shape even with a padded luff , attempting to reduce the unavoidable belly in reducing sail area and flattening as the wind picks up. Sheeting through, between the upper and lower shroud, will allow a better sheeting angle, but only for a limited point of sail. When sheeted between the upper and lower the spreader limits the leach and the lower limits the height of the foot if you can find a genoa track with acceptable sheeting angle that powers up and down the sails poor shape and larger headstay profile. Chafe will be a problem from many points and youll need to barberhaul the clew for position rather than improve your point of sail.

Roller Furlering a sail more than 20% will further degrade an already compromised shape; increase clew height and size of headstay windage presentation, and working with limited track and sheet block position.

From QUANTUM Sail Design Group
The questions to ask yourself are: How long do you plan to own it? How long do you expect your sails to last? What is the typical crew and sailing ability? How concerned are you about sail shape? (i.e. are you a fiddler who hates to see other boats pass and who loves to sail upwind; or are sails just triangles somewhere up there above the bimini?) How important is ease of handling (hoisting, lowering, flaking, trimming)? Finally, how much do you have to spend? The answers will help focus the search for the appropriate level of technology.

The Inventory
The type of sails needed is a much simpler issue. For headsails, we will accept the convenience and handling safety of a roller furling system, and build as the primary sail a medium to large roller furling genoa. In choosing the size of the overlap for the genoa, we need to balance off several factors:

Size of the Foretriangle versus Mainsail Size The larger the mainsail relative to the headsails, the smaller the genoa needs to be. Check the foot length of the mainsail ("E") versus the base of the foretriangle from mast to stem ("J"). If they are equal, or if E is longer than J, the boat relies more on its mainsail for horsepower, and the jibs can be smaller. The latest "performance" cruising boats have huge mainsails and use non-overlapping jibs as the primary sail. On the other side of the coin many older, or more traditional, cruising boats have relatively small mainsails and big "J" dimensions. These are genoa dependent, and will need larger headsails.
The length of "J" versus LP LP is the shortest straight-line distance from clew to luff. It is expressed as a percentage of "J" (150% LP = 1.5 x J). It does no relate directly to area, but is a measure of overlap. For a given percentage of overlap, you get a much bigger sail on a boat with a long J dimension.

Crew size, condition, and ability The larger, stronger, and more experienced your normal sailing companions, the better able to manage a bigger sail.

Average Sailing Conditions If you sail in San Francisco or Buzzards Bay, you won't need as much sail as if your home sailing ground is the Chesapeake Bay or Long Island Sound.

Performance Going larger (say from a 135% to a 150%) is usually only a benefit in under eight to ten knots of breeze. Additional LP is a liability in more breeze. It is also of only marginal, if any, benefit reaching and running. With sheets eased, most of the back end of a genoa is turned back into the boat. Specialty reaching genoas for racing are actually usually reduced slightly on the LP.

Ability to Partially Furl Genoas for roller furling are usually sold on the premise that they can be used partly furled. This is true from a structural standpoint, if allowances are made in the initial construction. Shape deteriorates with amount the sail is furled. Most sailmakers will quote reasonably effective reduction of up to 30% of original LP. Beyond this you have a triangle, but not much of an airfoil. When sailing off the wind this probably isn't that important, but is if you want to go upwind. The bottom line is that handling and versatility considerations suggest keeping the genoa as small as possible. Build only enough size to maintain the ability to drive the boat reasonably well in light to moderate conditions. The more easily driven the boat, and the larger the mainsail relative to the headsail, the smaller the LP can be. This is even more valid if you are the type of sailor who turns the engine on when it gets light.

Clew Height The height of the clew off the deck is another issue. The higher the clew, the better the sail will be when used reaching. The sail will twist off less because the angle the sheet makes with the clew will change less. Better tension on the leech will keep the top of the sail from opening up (twisting) and luffing. Upwind performance is better with a lower clew. A minimum clew height of 36 inches is recommended, simply so that the foot of sail always clears the lifelines, and does not have to be lifted or "skirted" every time the boat is tacked. A higher clew will also minimize the amount of water that is scooped up by the sail in big seas, and will make it a little easier to see under the sail. Clew height is limited by the amount of genoa track. The higher the clew, the further aft the sail sheets; so size and clew height must be balanced off.
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

They Theirs wrote: ... The larger the mainsail relative to the headsails, the smaller the genoa needs to be.

- Check the foot length of the mainsail ("E") versus the base of the foretriangle ("J").

- If they are equal, or if E is longer than J, the boat relies more on its mainsail ... jibs can be smaller.
Mike,
J and E are ~equal on the 26X:
J = 9.8'
E = 10.0'

My 135 Genoa should theoretically reef down to 105 pretty effectively, so that's why I'm curious about double sheeting it. The new tracks on cabintop would be a benefit for both jib and reefed Genny. I seems to me that all three mods (lifting the tack, outboard cabintop tracks, double-sheeting) have reasonably good prospects for adding value. Time will tell.
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They Theirs
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Post by They Theirs »

Spot on Frank

Run your mouse over the Quantum Sail Design Group, as I posted directly and used the [url] to appear better.

I believe your #2 130% Genoa is right in line with Quantum. You may find an acceptable track position as your clew climbs. The Frisco Bay is certainly a candidate for reducing the LP of the genoa. Im wondering if your research into raising the headstay, CDI Furling Unit, and installing the Quick Release to ease forestay setup. Raising your genoa in this manner may find the evasive sheeting youre genoa needs, while raising the foot, but can compromise pointing.
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Richard O'Brien
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Post by Richard O'Brien »

Frank C wrote:
They Theirs wrote: ...

My 135 Genoa should theoretically reef down to 105 pretty effectively, so that's why I'm curious about double sheeting it.
Boy! I certainly hope you try these Frank. It never occurred to me that you might get the advantages of jib and genny in one sail. Wish I'd ordered a 135, Rats :cry:
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ALX357
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Post by ALX357 »

raised hounds, see full story in Mods pages...

Image

note all three hounds are above normal position, where the shrounds are attached. The lowest is for an aux. jib wire hoist, and jib halyard, and mast raising block/line.
The middle hound is just for the furler, no other blocks or lines to interfere. It is about 8 inches higher than the original position.
The top hound is for the Genoa sock halyard.
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
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Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa »

Jeff S wrote:...a second set of sheets might be an answer. Has anyone tried that?

You can see my second set of sheets in this photo (also my mast raising pole tied to the mast). I just used some light line (1/4 inch I think) for the second set which goes through the rollers on the cabin top tracks where the factory jib is supposed to be sheeted.

Image

Its nice having the sheets there so I can keep the sheet blocks up on the cabin top all the time without worrying about them falling in the water if they get disengaged. With the thin line, I end up having to use the winches to tighten the sail up. It probably does point a bit better in stronger winds in that configuration but I doubt it is as good as the 100 jib.

In lighter winds, I think it is faster to just lose 10 degrees of point and unfurl the whole genoa to go faster. I haven't had it out in very strong winds lately so my memory is fading. I need someone to race against with a 26X in order to make any real conclusions.

Anyway, it is a very simple mod and gives you a bit more control.
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Alex,
I noticed your hound-stack in another thread. You'd like reading the Quantum pdf file posted by TT. They affirm what you've already done! Basically they say that a Genoa simply cannot be reefed as far as I'd like, so they strongly recommend a (small) Genoa on the furler plus an auxilliary forestay for a hanked jib.

I need to maintain such a tight rig for our summer winds that I'm reluctant to raise the furler hound 8 inches above the shrouds ... but since that is only 15% of the top section (total 48" to the masthead), so maybe I'll go with it. I tried to find your mod in the mod pages, to no avail. Where's it filed?

Richard,
Quantum suggests the Genny should be the smallest that will move the boat acceptably in light air, even to the point of suggesting - if you usually use the motor in light air, then get a smaller Genoa! I knew that 150 was way beyond my needs so I chose UK's Tapedrive with LP of 135. However, reefing it to 105 might be too optimistic ... now wish I had a 125!! But I am shopping for the enhanced cabintop tracks and I'll definitely try out the double sheeting before October.

Off-Topic:
Anyone who's curious about the logic in choosing a full-batten mainsail .... read the same PDF file.
There's a long section on the considerations bearing on mainsail choices.
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Post by Rolf »

Another advantage of genoa only/no boom, main is having a 6'4" bimini/dodger combo. Lots of room to move around.
R
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ALX357
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Post by ALX357 »

I pasted this shortcut to the mod for raised Genoa and auxiliary/alternate jib wire.

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/cgi-bin ... record=699
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