18 mph under sail. Can it be done?

[waternwaves]

I doubt the 18 mph can be attained in really high winds. What I'm thinking is around 20 knts under spinnaker

I missed something here.....

[delevi]

doubt the 18 mph can be attained in really high winds. What I'm thinking is around 20 knts under spinnaker

What I meant was: Sailing in high winds under main & jib will probably not allow the Mac to attain 18 mph or anything close to it, since the boat will be overpowered or broach if on a broad reach in anything say 30 knts+ The quartering seas that accompany such winds will require the main to be reefed or dropped to avoid broaching... been there, done that. Any higher point of sail will require reefing both sails and will still result in heeling angles between 30-45 degrees, so any achievable boat speed will be limited.

On the other hand, sailing on a broad reach in 20 knts wind with full main and spinnaker may allow the boat to reach this speed, since the hull will plane over 10 mph and we're talking 520 square feet of sail area. These are the conditions I think may possibly allow the Mac to hit such a speed, not those in the previous paragraph. Hope that's clear.

As for furlers, I suppose anything on a sailboat can give at any time if conditions are heavy. So why single out the furler? A jib furled to storm size will be about half way up the forestay. Due to my stomping grounds, I have sailed in the heavy stuff a lot and this setup works great for me. Since the wind velocity varies, it is nice to be able to adjust the size of the jib any time, especially when you need it most. I sure don’t want to go to the foredeck to do a sail change in 35 knts. Not sure how big an issue the windage is from a furled sail. Doubt it’s much more than the excess cloth of a reefed main. Granted, it’s higher up.

Leon

[waternwaves]

moving the wind into the small jib, and double reefed main, broad reach, and I was not even 20 degrees of heel and over 10 mph.....

keep those sails low, and you will have a much drier and more comfortalbe ride.

The added advantage is that much less stress on the spreaders and rigging, since distance from the force of the sail to the mast step is much less.

CDI roller furler does not seem tough enough for partial extreme furling (35+kts) and my mylar definitely is not set up for that. Too damn light. Now those of you with 6-7 oz dacron probably can do it, I cannot. a mylar roller furled gennie is really for not much more than 20 kts wind.

[delevi]

W&W,
Broad reach is the key here. Not much heel on this point of sail, but waves are a different story. Not sure about a mylar sail, but I used the stock jib roller reefed prior to getting my new sails. Granted, the old sails are toast now, but both of them so can't necessarilly fault roller reefing on the jib blowing out. The current Fusion X sail is stronger than 7 oz Dac so no problem here. Don't see how the CDI furler strength comes into play. The 3/16" line has a breaking strength greater than that of the forestay wire and the sail is partially rolled, so the line isn't taking the full load.

on edit:
The luff pad will help preserve the rolled jib's shape and keep it lower as well. Still not a true storm sail but comapred to a sail change in extreme weather and big waves, I'll take it.

Leon

[delevi]

I still haven't forgotten about my desire for a double (side by side) forestay to simplify foredeck work, and always have the next jib ready.
My preferred setup on cruisers. You can do your sail changes calmly while underway.

Too bad you can't have a double forestay with a furler on one of them. It would be ideal to have a jib on a furler and a spare forestay to hank on a genoa or a storm sail as needed. I suppose it wouldn't be hard for two bare stays (w/o furler) since there are alread two attachment points.

[delevi]

Yes, 2 on the M. Didn't realize there was only one on the X.

[Frank C]

The X has two holes, one forward for the stay and the second hole aft, for the tack. We discussed this once before ... there's not a convenient way to add twin forestays to the foretang on the 26X. But I didn't think the 26M was any easier?

This pic from Catigale's bow shows his QR fitting on the 26X forestay (Mac Mods page). Is the forestay tang of the 26M any different?
(I liked Stephen's idea so I copied it on my X ... same QR makes pinning my forestay a "snap.")



Final thought ... the 26X foretang is bolted just an inch or two aft from the bow, to the starboard hull. It's a pretty simple step to attach a second foretang to the port hull ... you just need a stainless strap about 18" length, and to slice another opening thru the foredeck.

Oh yeah ... 'nother thing, I'm pretty sure that Roger adds a few extra layers of fiber into that starboard hull, so you might want to add some beef on the port side too.

[beene]

I for one love having a furler. For me it has always been a safety issue as well as a convenience.

I use clutches

and on the other side

The one time I was out in 45kt winds, main was down and tied, Genny unfurled about 1/4 with the furler line clutched, beam reach, boat was healed about 30deg just due to freeboard alone, without warning the genny unfurled pulling the furler line through the clutch like it wasn't even closed.

Needless to say I grabbed the furler line and hauled the genny back in. Took a second to regain my composure, then I let the genny back out again 1/4 and proceeded to wrap the furler line around the port winch and through the cam cleat. Saying " try to pull the genny out now "

That worked. I then proceeded to head just off DDW with the genny out full. What a ride

Again, never thought for one second that it would be even remotely possible to have used the asym, though she sure is purty




G

[Terry]

Eric wrote:

The one time I looked at the M the holes are side by side not longitudinal like on the X, so it would make it much easier to add a second forestay.

This is correct, the foretang is connected to the bow hull and extends up over the bow with two horizontal holes abeam of the boat. One hole is for the forestay while the other is for headsail tack. I suppose one could (using existing two holes) bolt on another attachement with 3 holes on it. Not sure on the newer M's but on my '03M the forestay hound attachement is about a foot higher than on an X. I noticed looking up there one day (with binoculars) that I had plenty of room left to hoist my foresails higher and since it really annoyed me that the foot of the headsails always dragged over the pulpit I put in a six inch extension on my foretang to lift the foot higher over the pulpit. Works pretty good and also gives me a place to attache a small snatch block to the extension for a downhaul. (just bought one for $5.). Still room to hoist higher. I suppose one could install a second forestay to the same hound or install a second hound lower, about the same height as the X and put in a second stay. Good place for a self tending stormsail. There is also a twin luff groove system out there. Perhaps when I get new sails like Leon I will have my current jib recut to a storm sail and try it.

[Frank C]

The one time I looked at the M the holes are side by side not longitudinal like on the X, so it would make it much easier to add a second forestay.

This is correct, the foretang is connected to the bow hull and extends up over the bow with two horizontal holes abeam of the boat. One hole is for the forestay while the other is for headsail tack. I suppose one could (using existing two holes) bolt on another attachement with 3 holes on it. . . .

Hmmm - never occurred to me but I guess you could jury-rig two stays onto the X's single tang. The 26M tang, extending across the forepeak, seems much stronger than that on the X. But it also seems it would preclude mounting a bow roller on the 26M. Picture, anyone?

Several 26X owners, after extreme storm conditions, have reported that the forestay tang has sliced right through the foredeck "aft-wise" by some few inches. Apparently the rig can stand in 60 knots, but the foredeck has suffered from that knife-edged tang. While installing my bow roller I had them install a full-width backing plate, of quarter-inch aluminum. A trapezoid shape, it bridges the underdeck from side to side, cleat to cleat, just aft of the foretang.

[delevi]

I have an anchor roller, just fore of the forestay tang. Not sure if it's stock or dealer-installed. The tang on my 05 M looks quite beefy. Never been out in 60 knts, but no problems in 40. All in all, the boat has always felt reall solid, even in really nasty conditions. The only thing I ever had break was the cheap hardware that came with the Mac. At this point, I have replaced everything except the standing rigging. OH yea, broke two spreaders, but not on the water. First time I hit a tree while trailering to the ramp, mast up. Second time when I put too much weight on the mast when it was laying on the deck. oops

Leon

[Terry]

Frank Wrote:

Hmmm - never occurred to me but I guess you could jury-rig two stays onto the X's single tang. The 26M tang, extending across the forepeak, seems much stronger than that on the X. But it also seems it would preclude mounting a bow roller on the 26M. Picture, anyone?

No picture Frank, I am not at home but I do have a bow/anchor roller right beside the foretang and if memory serves me I think that tang is slightly higher than the roller frame. The foretang itself is bolted right into the knife edge of the bow and extends up then curves aft. After thinking about it, I don't think it would be too difficult to bolt a small SS plate onto it with 3 holes that may only be an inch above the original two, perhaps even just drill a third hole into the existing tang although I need to be home to have a closer look, too many holes may weaken the tang.

[Scott]

Am I mistaken or did I read that the boat will plane under sail when doing over 10 knots?? A Mac??

I am curious if anyone here can make the claim that they have had a mac plane under sail.

On the other hand, sailing on a broad reach in 20 knts wind with full main and spinnaker may allow the boat to reach this speed, since the hull will plane over 10 mph and we're talking 520 square feet of sail area.

[delevi]

I've done it @ 9 knots. The bow rose, not as much as under power but it did rise and I was surfing the waves. I did this on a handful of occasions, but couldn't sustain it for more than 15 seconds or so.

Leon

[beene]

That happened to me on my Sandpiper.

But I figurued, as I was just off DDW, going with the waves of coarse, that it was a result of the boat almost exceeding max hull speed as it did not quite outrun the wave crest. I think that is the breaking point, to be truly planing, to be able to outrun the wave crest. By your description, it sounds like the wave still past you, you were riding/surfing it for a few seconds, but it still outran you in the end. To me, that does not sound like you were planing, but very close to.

Just my deluded perception of what happened