Cuba, anyone?

[baldbaby2000]

The oil companies are lobbying Congress for business permission to go to Cuba due to a discovery of oil in Cuba. They are very pi$$ that the embargo is keeping them from all that good oil. As soon as Castro is officially dead (some say that he's already dead), this will forge ahead. I have a friend who is an oil exec. He says that's the plan.

A few months ago I remember Dick Morris on the O'Rielly factor say that when Castro is gone, things are going to change there radically. He didn't give specific reasons for saying that but it sounded like he knew something the rest of us didn't.

[kmclemore]

A few months ago I remember Dick Morris on the O'Rielly factor say that when Castro is gone, things are going to change there radically. He didn't give specific reasons for saying that but it sounded like he knew something the rest of us didn't.

It's not the oil money... no, there's something MUCH more lucrative.

I'll take even money on the bet that the mob has already got an inside track to making Havana back into the casino and resort destination that it once was back in the 30's thru 50's... there's BILLIONS of $$ to be made by turning that place into a new Las Vegas (without restrictive US laws to rein them in), and I'll also bet there are lots of Cuban leaders waiting to get their share once the old guy's gone.

I give them 1 year once Castro's body has gone cold before they open the place up to mob investment.

Any takers?

[Moe]

I'll take even money on the bet that the mob has already got an inside track to making Havana back into the casino and resort destination that it once was back in the 30's thru 50's... there's BILLIONS of $$ to be made by turning that place into a new Las Vegas (without restrictive US laws to rein them in), and I'll also bet there are lots of Cuban leaders waiting to get their share once the old guy's gone.

I give them 1 year once Castro's body has gone cold before they open the place up to mob investment.

Any takers?

Exactly. I believe Biloxi's going to lose them to Havana.

[cuisto]

Become Canadian....as far as I know there is no where in the world we can not travel to.. there are maybe places we arent entirly welcome but cannot at this time think of one.

Do you guys call a rum and coke a Cuba Libre?

[pokerrick1]

Tomasrey88 - -

Yes - - I was referring to the 17 year old. It is sad we can't visit a country 90 miles from our border. It would probably be a fascinating trip. I'd go without thinking twice. Ole'

Rick

[k9piper]

Tomasray88,
Just a note of advice. I just retired from Customs and Border Protection about 5 months ago. You want to go to Cuba? Well good luck as it is against Federal and Congressional Law.
You might waIt to take the chance and go but I would strongly advise you not to do it any way other than what the Law calls for. Sure , you can get there from a third country but if you get caught you will loose much and perhaps your freedom. Still want to go? Maybe one day you will be able to go and it will not be against the law, still want to go?
One big problem that you face is , if you wanted to go so bad you should have kept it to yourself...now your secret is out and you never know what law enforcement officers are on this BB. Do you still want to go? Do you think that your email address and your info can't be obtained by Federal Law Enforcement? Guess again. Please don't do anything to harm your own happiness and well being.
The US seems to think Cuba isn't a good place for it's citizens, maybe they are right and again maybe they are wrong...it's the law. Maybe you should enlist in the armed services and get assigned to GITMO that way you would be in Cuba but you wouldn't see very much of it.
Well that is enough of my rant on the topic. Do what you have to do it's your freedom of choice.

K9piper

[pokerrick1]

Kevin;

You are in the right church but the wrong pew. You are absolutely correct that once Castro dies it is only a matter of a short time before Havana is returned to resort and 5* casino status. Gaming interests cannot wait to develop new territory - - - however, it won't be the mob doing it - - - it will be legitimate gaming conglomerates (they have more money anyway than the mob and the locals will still "get theirs").

Cuba is particularly ripe because populous Florida has antiquated gaming laws and even drastically limits what Indian Casinos can do. Mississippi has done extremely well (pre-Katrina) with their non-Indian casinos partially because many Floridians and Texans (which has NO casino gaming) make MS a vacation destination. Gaming goes in cycles - - - we are now in a monster UP cycle - - - which will probably last decades longer before it declines. If Cuba had not been declared off limits by the US Government - - - rest assured that Wynn, MGM and other LEGITIMATE casino developers would already be there with bells on!

Macau, China (near Hong Kong), recently openned up their once private gaming licenses to foreign outsiders, and there is so much legitimate gaming development going on there that Macau's bottom line TAKE is expected to be larger than Nevada's within just 10 years. Quite unbelievable.

Kevin, gaming will most certainly come back to Cuba (I hope soon, I want to travel there), but it will not be mob controlled (it will be controlled by corporate people with absolutely NO scrupples)!

Rick

[Zoran]

I have privilege of Canadian citizenship and for us it is completely legal to go to Cuba. I actually been there two weeks in summer 2006, by plane not by sail. Beautiful and very safe country, people are poor but clean and proud. I loved it there, met some Cubans, very educated people. I would like to sail there but maybe in the other life, or when I retire, but than Cuba will not be the same.

Zoran

[Shane]

Without the safety net of your country, why do it?

Having said that, whenever you get a chance to go, do it! Twice I've taken groups of 50-60 high school music students and their experiences were fantastic! Our time was spent in a variety of locales, rural to urban. I could go on and on, but this is not the place. I will say that it is unfair to judge any society without knowing about them. Cubans are mixed on Castro; just like Americans on Bush, or Canadians on Harper. The younger cubans do not remember the Batista regime, but many still passionately consider Castro their hero.

Much of what we see, and the first card many play is the lack of material wealth. Maybe, but I found them to be so rich in many other ways. Our first trip was in 2000, and they were still struggling with the loss of financial support following the demise of the USSR in the 1990s. In 2006 I things had improved dramatically. Are there problems in Cuba? Yes. Are the US & Canada without problems? I will say that our students came back with a wonderful appreciation for the cuban people, and a recognition of the excess of wealth and luxury that we often take for granted.

Your mileage may vary, I only hope that whatever changes happen post Castro (either brother), is that their spirit and passion for life are not casualties in their governments -and outside intrests- quest for the 'material wealth' that so many things are often judged.

Sorry.... off my soapbox now

Shane

[Luke]

A clarification please:
Mr. K9piper wrote:

“… I just retired from Customs and Border Protection about 5 months ago. You want to go to Cuba? Well good luck as it is against Federal and Congressional Law..."

Mr. K9piper, with respect, I believe your statements are not entirely accurate.

"...but if you get caught you will loose (sic) much and perhaps your freedom..."

Caught doing what by whom?
I am not aware of anyone losing his or her freedoms do to travel to or from Cuba.
Could you please cite an example for us so that I may learn from others' mistakes?

The short story:
You cannot legally go as a “tourist”.
The hurdle is with the United States Government, not with the Cuban Government.
Several of us from this Macgregor board may legally travel to Cuba to work with journalists or to participate in humanitarian missions.
The summer of 2005 eight of us received an OFAC license to spend money in Cuba.
Four made the trip. Several south Florida newspapers covered the story.
Two months ago one of my boating pals invited me to travel to Cuba with him on a photojournalism trip to the interior of the island.
I regret that I could not go do to work commitments.

So you want to sail to Cuba? Please read the long story below:
Under US law, it is not illegal to travel to Cuba, however travelers to Cuba must have permission to spend money in Cuba. The Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC), under the United States Department of Treasury, grants this permission.
Without this specific written permission, subsequent to a return to the states, one may be charged with violation of the Trading with the Enemy Act, known as the TWEA laws enacted in 1917. Upon a return to the States from a trip to Cuba, if you cannot present an OFAC license, then there is a prima facie case against you for a TWEA violation.
Shortly after your return to the states, you may receive a letter telling you that you are being fined $10,000. You are guilty unless you prove your innocence. So, what you want to make plead your case in court?
There is another problem: Our Congress is reluctant to fund judges to hear these cases, so you may wait years, or longer, for your day in court.

How did we Macgregor sailors obtain the OFAC license?
We received the OFAC license for a “humanitarian mission” because we were to carry several thousand pounds of humanitarian supplies to Cuban medical clinics.
We were traveling under the aegis of a humanitarian organization.
The plan was to sail south from Key West in two Macgregor 26X’s and one 46 foot trawler.
We had permission to launch this mission in mid-July 2005.
The first week of July, two weeks prior to our mission, the United States Government placed another hurdle in front of us: there was a new license needed for taking boats to Cuba.
The new permit is called a “Sojourn license”.
A sojourn license is a license to temporarily “export” the boat to Cuba.
We had to apply to the United States Department of Commerce for the license.
We applied for the sojourn license but did not receive it in time for our mission.
Four members of our team flew to Cuba and they were limited to carrying as much of our humanitarian supplies as they could pack into suitcases.
Several thousand pounds of medical supplies, surgical equipment and other aid was left behind in our staging area in Marathon, Florida.

August 2005, we owners of the boats received a letter stating that the US Department of Commerce was denying our sojourn application.
Two of us with the Macgregor 26X’s vigorously pursued an appeal of the denial of the Sojourn license application. We learned that the US Commerce Department was willing to grant it, but the Commerce Department had to receive authorization from the US Department of State.
The State Department denied our applications.
We learned that the holdup was political.
At that time the Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs was Roger Noriega. Mr. Noriega is well known for his hard-line anti-Castro politics.
Mr. Noriega’s colleague and predecessor at the State Department desk was Mr. Otto Reich, the former Bacardi Rum lobbyist.
Mr. Reich had shaped US attitude toward Cuba during his tenure at State.
Some background on Reich:

Reich helped draft the 1995 Helms-Burton Act, which tightened the Cuba embargo by, among other things, penalizing foreign companies with business ties to Cuba, and allowing suits against them. These provisions could benefit Bacardi and Co., Reich's main lobbying client during the last decade (it has paid his consulting company $600,000 in fees since 1996). Under Helms-Burton, more than $3 million in U.S. funds have been funneled to two anti-Castro institutions closely connected to Reich: the Center for a Free Cuba, where he was a director, and the Bacardi-sponsored U.S.-Cuba Business Council, of which he was president.


Mr. Noriega shared the same hard-line philosophy toward Cuba.
He asked his Latin American desk to sit on our applications.
I talked the Latin desk’s lawyer who was “analyzing” my application for the sojourn license.
He told me that my application had to pass through the State Department’s office responsible for investigating individuals’ financial relationships with known terrorist organizations. (!?)

September 2005: A US Department of Commerce lawyer called me.
He told me off-the-record, that his department thought that the State Department was unfairly and arbitrarily denying us the Sojourn license.
He asked me if I would be a legal “test case” to represent a portfolio of individuals who were being denied sojourn licenses for boat travel to Cuba. He offered to represent me as long as I would not “give up” after he put all the work into developing and presenting my case.
I agreed. I asked for my “day in court”.

There was a hearing. I was not allowed to attend.
The participants: US Departments of Commerce, State, Defense, and Energy.
The Commerce lawyer presented my case.
I had passed criminal and financial background checks conducted by the Departments of Commerce, State and Defense.
I had passed the State Department’s extensive checks into possible ties to terrorist organizations.
There was vote. I needed unanimous approval.
The State Department denied my application.
I asked for a hearing to appeal the denial.
The Commerce lawyer explained that while I was allowed another hearing to appeal the denial, I had to understand several points:

1) Under administrative law, I am allowed a second hearing. This next hearing is conduced by the department heads of the respective agencies. The State Department’s officer would be the head of the Latin American Department. The department heads are political appointees, not career officers.
2) If, in the next hearing, they cannot reach a unanimous decision on my case, the National Security Council (NSC) would then conduct my next appellate hearing. At that time Dr. Condoleezza Rice lead the department. He explained that there was no way the NSC wanted to get involved with my case.
3) This hearing was going to be very political: If I had any political connections I should ask for help right now.
4) There was a hint that there were soon to be major changes in the leadership at the State Department, so now may be the time to push for our hearing. (Later we learned that Noriega was planning to leave the State Department)

In anticipation a partisan vote at my hearing, I called in favors.
By coincidence, my significant other was in Washington D.C. lobbying in the halls of Congress prior to my hearing.
She visited a Senator on the United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
The Senator lobbied on my behalf.
Furthermore, my US Representative supported my case.
I had a letter of support from a President of a National Church group.

The government refused to hold that second hearing.
Under administrative law, I was to have had that second hearing within 60 days of my request.
They denied my right to the appeal.
Two of us with the Macgregor 26X’s received a “Final Notice of Denial” letter a few months ago. A Washington DC law firm was interested in getting involved on my behalf.
I did not follow-up with that law firm.
Why did I not take further legal action?
I hate to admit this, but after two years of this, they wore me out.
I just do not have the time and energy to continue pursuing it.

Conclusion
Today there is no way we US citizens can obtain a sojourn license.
In time, this will change.
If you want to go, fly there. Go legally with a journalist or go on a trade mission.
Be certain you are named on the OFAC license before you go.

Luke
DreamChaser

[NiceAft]

Just read this related article in todays Philadelphia Inquirer

Readying for the Cuba Rush
By Chris Mondics
Inquirer Staff Writer

For The Inquirer
Lawyer Tim Ashby of Duane Morris is leading the Philadelphia law firm's Cuba initiative from Miami.
» More images
Despite persistent opposition in Congress and from the Bush administration to Cuba's communist government, American trade and travel restrictions on that island nation likely will be lifted one day.
And when they are, the Duane Morris L.L.P. law firm in Philadelphia wants to be there to reap what some think will be a windfall in legal and consulting fees.

Duane Morris, one of Philadelphia's largest law firms, with 650 lawyers, is one of a handful of professional-services firms nationwide positioning themselves to guide clients who want to do business in Cuba through the thicket of bureaucratic and political obstacles.

The concept is simple, and even a bit seductive: Cuba is a nation stuck in time, with markets and public infrastructure that are woefully underdeveloped, much like China 30 years ago. It has more coastline, and more undeveloped beaches, than all of the other islands in the Caribbean combined. It also has the potential for offshore energy development.

With so much investment capital sloshing around the globe, and millions of American baby boomers beginning to think about retiring to warmer climes, a green light from the United States would surely trigger an overnight boom.

Or so the thinking goes.

"Once it opens up, it could be 'Katie bar the door,' " said Sheldon Bonovitz, chairman of Duane Morris.

Yet, because of fierce political opposition in the United States from Cuban emigres and others, prospects for lifting the embargo and travel restrictions in the short term are uncertain. Although Congress passed legislation in 2003 that would have lifted the travel restrictions as part of a larger legislative package, the provision was removed by Republican leaders during negotiations between the House and Senate.

Democrats, who now control both houses of Congress, are deemed more sympathetic to the idea of closer relations with Cuba. But President Bush, whose administration has aggressively pursued sanctions against Cuba and companies that violate the trade embargo, likely would veto any measure that got to his desk.

Political observers say prospects for lifting the restrictions will not improve measurably until Bush leaves office after the 2008 election.

"This is a policy that has had tremendous staying power," said Dan Erickson, a senior associate at the Inter American Dialogue, a Washington think tank. "There have been many times going as far back as the 1970s when things opened up under President Carter and people said the embargo was in its final days, and somehow, it manages to continue. It has proven difficult to change."

What gives hope to firms like Duane Morris is the burgeoning trade that already exists between the United States and Cuba. Under a series of exemptions, American firms can export pharmaceuticals and other health-related products, and agricultural goods. Agricultural trade alone between the two nations now is $500 million a year.

Other nations do substantially more trade. Total committed foreign investment was about $6 billion, according to a 2006 report by Ernst & Young L.L.P. Cuba's largest trading partner was Venezuela, followed by China, Spain, Canada and Holland.

A study by Florida State University researchers Tim Lynch and Necati Aydin estimates that the Cuba trade embargo costs the United States $3 billion to $4 billion in lost exports each year.

Helping to lead the Duane Morris initiative on Cuba is lawyer Tim Ashby, a former U.S. deputy assistant secretary of commerce.

Ashby, who is based in the firm's Miami office, also manages a separate consulting firm called Cabesterre L.L.C., which advises American and foreign clients on Cuba. Ashby was recruited by Duane Morris for his expertise on Cuban and Latin American trade. Bonovitz said he expected clients of both firms to benefit: Duane Morris will provide legal services, while Cabesterre will furnish political and commercial expertise.

"I won't have a condo there," Bonovitz said. "But we would like to be representing condo developers."

Ashby describes the Cubans as eagerly anticipating American investment, but on their own terms. Cuban officials have told him that the country would need a minimum of 250,000 new hotel rooms once the trade embargo was lifted.

"They do believe they have a future with America," he said.

By way of explaining Cubans' dire need for basic commodities and equipment, he said his Cuban friends often asked him to bring things like hammers and nails on return visits.

Although federal law lays out substantial penalties for companies that violate trading restrictions, there is nothing to prevent companies from meeting with Cuban officials to discuss potential projects or even to sign letters of intent. In this way, Ashby says, firms are positioning themselves for an eventual opening up of trade between the two countries.

Ashby said he had been approached by major airlines, building-supply companies, energy-development firms, and others seeking advice on how to do business in Cuba once the trade restrictions are ended.

One significant obstacle is Cuba's abysmal human rights record, which fuels the congressional opposition. Dissent is suppressed, and political opponents of the Castro government are harassed and jailed. Political gadflies often find their houses surrounded by mobs of screaming Castro supporters, who sometimes break windows and prevent occupants from leaving, or conduct other "acts of repudiation."

The hope among trade proponents such as Ashby is that Fidel Castro's failing health will help to loosen his iron grip on Cuba and that the already robust trade with Europe and Canada will foster a more democratic climate.

But staunch Castro opponents in Congress are skeptical, and they doubt that trade alone will improve the climate there.

"I think that is naive in the extreme," said Rep. Chris Smith (R., N.J.), a harsh critic not only of Castro but also of other authoritarian governments, such as China. "The Europeans and the Canadians have been trading robustly with Cuba, and there has been no amelioration of the democracy and human rights issues. If anything, the situation has gotten worse."

But Ashby, a former Republican appointee, said it was not trade alone that would help Cuba change course. The country's proximity to the United States also will help bring about change, he maintains.

"Cuba is in transition, and that is very obvious," Ashby said. "They are very aware of the U.S. They are not living in a deep freeze."

[tomasrey88]

Well,

Nobody has replied nor PM'ed me saying that they've went to Cuba. I was wondering if someone has gone LEGALLY and could tell me how it could be done LEGALLY. Obviously, as k9piper pointed out, it is NOT legal to go. I do not mean to suggest that I want to break the law by going to Cuba through a third country. I thought that it was legal as long as you don't spend any money there. Going through another country was just a way to avoid running into trouble and misunderstanding from govenment officials who are not employed to decide if you are breaking the law or not. They are only employed to arrest and fine those who appear to have broken the law and let the courts sort it out later. Furthermore, it is just not worth the risk considering that it will be LEGAL to go soon. I will go, but after it is legalized (when Castro's death is confirmed). There is already an "American Business Center" in Havana. As soon as relations normalize between the U.S.A. and Cuba after Castro's death is confirmed, the sign on this building will be changed to "American Embassy". It is insane to lay off all that good Cuban oil just a couple of miles off the Florida coast. Considering that Castro is in his 80's and he smokes, I won't have to wait long....

Thanks for all your responses!
P.S. I've gone to some pretty offbeat places, but never anywhere that was illegal. Trips I've taken;
1996, after Clinton legalized it, a trip to Vietnam. A friend from my church went to visit family there and I tagged along. The Vietnamese have just as much, if not more, capitalist spirit as Americans. Yet, their country is communist? This Viet friend of mine said that the Viet communist government is like a piece of sheet covering a lump of gold. I agree. I went to see about the possibility to start a missionary there. The communist government said that it would be a no go.

I also went to Bosnia shortly after the war as part of a humanitarian missionary. I saw many crippled children. Landmines are evil. They keep killing and crippling long after a war is over....

During the rash of kidnappings of Americans in Cuba, I went to Colombia on another missionary trip. I stayed out of trouble by blending in since I speak fluent Spanish.

Anyways, I'll stay tuned. If anybody has any interesting and daring trips (LEGAL ONES), let me know! As soon as it's legal to go to Cuba, I'll let you know

Meanwhile, let's close this thread. Enough's been said. The conclusion is, ain't nobody gonna go 'til Fidel's good 'n dead.

[kmclemore]

And in today's news.....

Michael ("Sicko") Moore is on the hot seat over his own little Cuba trip.

[DLT]

Michael ("Sicko") Moore

[kmclemore]

Michael ("Sicko") Moore

Whatever do you mean, DLT? Naturally I'm only making a reference to his latest hit movie. Nothing more. Do you suspect I might have meant something else? Some sort of 'right wing conspiracy' against a great, corpulent producer?

Gosh, there's conspiracy theorists everywhere.

Golly, it's like some sort of theorrist attack!