The difference between jib and genoa cars?

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

I now have a new, stronger version of my EZ Cleats. The cam cleat no longer swivels, but is attached to the car with an oval plate underneath it.
If you have the older, original version, that swivels, return them to me and I'll modify them, at no charge.
I'll pay for shipping both ways.
Or, if you prefer, return them for a full refund.

[johnnyonspot]

Simply an issue of line-leverage, granting tho, it's prolly not as taut as you'd choose

???? Leverage? Frank, how are you getting leverage on a jib sheet?

Rae,
I wasn't trying to be a smartass. If I sounded like one, sorry dude.
Just making the point that in 20 kts+ the loads on the jib are huge... I'm guessing a few hundred pounds. One would have to pull the sheet with both hands to trim it in w/o a winch, even so, to sheet it in tight on a beat, I think not.

Leon

I guess in 20+ knots, though I have never used the mechanical advantage if the winches, I have had to really give it a pull and use both hands/arms and brace myself with my legs to get the job trimmed in tight for close hauled sailing. Its work, but definitely doable. I am sure my vast 250 lb bulk and 6'2" frame help out, however.

[delevi]

But why? The winch is your friend

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

With the wind on the nose do you need a winch to tighten your sheets? No, they are blowing straight aft.

With the wind on the beam, do you need a winch to tighten your sheets? Maybe.

Or, just do a quick S-turn into the wind, sheet-in and head off. I do this from the helm.

I do use my winch to tighten my hammock on the fore-deck.

[Currie]

I'm pretty sure the difference in opinion here comes down to wind conditions. I can imagine Leon pointing up in 30kts and blading his jib awfully hard. Even with the wind running down the sail, blading it takes a lot of effort (the wind has the mechanical advantage). The winch would be my friend too.

~Bob

[Frank C]

My friends, the winch is my friend, but the winch handle IS NOT~!
It's forever a potential snag, at which point it might become:
1. an expensive and worthless lure, or
2. a lethal projectile.

I only use my winch as a one-wrap-snubber for the sheets, and I've rarely found hand-trimming the jib a problem even on SF Bay. I do agree that the Genoa on SF Bay is more than a coupla hands full, which is when I use this line-leverage trick.

The line between the Genny clew and the turning block is about 12 feet long, then another 4 feet forward to the winch-wrap. It's quite easy to pull inboard on that 12-footer, then secure those few inches of trim by pulling that slack (w/other hand) thru the sheet cleat. Ergo ... no winch handle to flip-flop each tack, or snag in the lines.

[delevi]

Frank, I was supposed to call you for that. I guess I waited too long, so it's no longer top secret info I'll call you anyway.

I like the winch handle I got from West Marine. Has a small lever which locks it in place and it's plastic, really smooth. Usually prep for my tacks, especially if using the runners, so flipping the handle to the other winch is just part of the process. Few weeks ago, I was sailing upwind out of the Golden Gate going through a tack every few minutes. I was using the genny sheeted between the shrouds. Now that was a challange, though the AP made the job much easier. Wasn't using the runners, but sure used the winches. I have a bit of a bum shoulder so I need mechanical advantage whenever I can get it. Plus, when sailing upwind, I usually try to sail really close, so the sheets need to be trimmed hard.... a job for my firend the winch.

Leon

[beene]

That's great news Bill. Mine are the older swivel kind. Must be why they self destructed.

As for the winches, the only time I find I need them is beam to just off DDW when I am running full Genny or Asym and want to adjust sail shape in high winds. At least for me, there is far too much tension on the sheets in those conditions to just use the EZ option. If I were to change my point of sail just to take tension off the sheets to use the EZ's, I would not know if I was taking in too much or too little. I need to see the shape change as I adjust it.

When pointing, I find a quickly timed head up while giving the sheets a tug can make good use from the EZ's without need for the winches and not loosing much headway. The whole process just takes a couple seconds.

But then again, Leon's sails and sailing conditions do not match mine.

G