Water tank install? Inside water ballast tank

[Divecoz]

I agree with much of what you say Russ... But I will add another benefit to discussing problems and solutions on this board..
#1. My Reply to Erics Electric Anchor.. Condensed Version is .. Its a VERY COOL Mod.. It required a lot of work and no doubt EXPENCE.. However the Only anchor that works is the 2nd most undesirable anchor available.. Looks Very Cool..!! Unless you are sailing over muddy bottoms? Those anchors do not set or hold very well.
So cool it is! But I warned others to look at the ratings and reviews of Plastic Coated Navy Anchors.. Unless that are willing to accept that anchors poor setting and holding abilities..
Curries Cockpit Extension? I see myself as being multifaceted and Creative and I am as I see it pretty dang good with tools etc etc.. But after viewing all that Currie went through to gain a WONDERFUL Cockpit area ... One I would LOVE to Have? Alas I feel its beyond my ability or at least desire to expend the time effort and money for.. But Curries Cockpit Extension is also High In The Cool Factor..
Then we can add no less than several Full Cabin Mods Again I covet those as well.. But at least for me after seeing all that was involved and alll the tools and ability required.. Its Just Not In The Cards for us.. But I loved seeing what many others with more Cabinet ability and tools than I have, have done..
On The Flip side we / I have seen projects attempted by those who were in fact Over Their Head.. BUT .. we all learned from EVERYONES Projects and Ideas for Projects,.. This board is, No Less Than .... an Excellent... Sounding Board..

This is a mod that I would never attempt. Actually, there are many mods beyond my skill set. But I salute those with the free time to do them and make some amazing changes to their boats. From Highlander's bowprits (and then some) to Currie's cabin and cockpit extension.

Since many of us use our boats for more than day sailing and the Mac is not really configured for cruising many of us are forced to be creative. Several areas seem to be of great challenge: Refrigeration, electric power, sanitation and potable water seem to be the most common. Next up seems to be air conditioning. One of the best benefits of this forum is learning how others have overcome these challenges and devising your own solutions from theirs.

Erik's electric anchor
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... =8&t=12983&

Currie's cockpit extension
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... =8&t=13570

All ideas that I would never do, but I'm in awe of their abilities to make them work. So, this is one I really would love to see happen.

[Ixneigh]

Sooooo the consensus is it would work as I imagine it would. Great. I'll leave the should I or should I not part for many evenings of ponder. As well as the actual nitty gritty details. I have quite a number of projects in front of this one since it is not a mission critical system for me, like the anchor winch and storage solutions were.

[RobertB]

I have been following this thread with a bit of interest - I have only a few concerns/questions.

First, general idea sounds good - displace ballast water with potable water.
Issue 1: How would you access the ballast tank without messing up the interior?
Issue 2: How could you open up an access to the ballast tank where there is no reasonable chance of it coming open and sinking your boat with you and your family on board? Would you permanantly seal the bladder in the ballast tank? Would you make the opening above the water line? Is the convenience worth the potential safety impacts?
Issue 3: How can you install a freshwater bladder/tank and still have access for maintenance?
Issue 4: A large partially filled bladder can have the unintended consequence of shifting weight in the direction you do not want it. This for example makes liquid tanker trucks a bit unstable unless they have internal baffles in the tanks to limit liquid shifting.
Issue 5: Filling the ballast tank to replace potable water used is no big deal - just open the stock ballast valve once in awhile.

[DaveB]

Sumner,
Can you imagine a plastic Bladder tank placed in the ballest with all its rough fiberglass edges bounce side to side rubbing causeing chafe.
One would have to put in baffels to try to keep it moving around so much and even than there would be chafeing.
I doubt you can get over 2-300 miles before the Bladder sprang a leak.
I am with you that this just won't work and if one sealed the open, how do you replace it ?
The concept looks interesting but one has to study all the problems.
You also need a air vent to allow air to escape as water is being used.
Dave

.... Having 30 gallons of fresh water without adding a single extra pound of weight is very cool.

First this is a mod I wouldn't attempt, but if he can pull it off it sounds like some of the rest of you might try it. I'll be interested in seeing pictures of it. I'd for sure want to be able to get the bladder out if needed, but sounds like that is planned for.

I realize that one of the projected pluses of this mod is that fresh water won't add weight to the boat but we really like the extra weight down low in our boat. 40+ gallons of water, 19 of fuel and lots of can goods and such down low has made our boat much more comfortable in heavier seas. It punches through the waves better vs. hitting them and then riding up and slowing.

I'm sure the extra weight probably hurts in light air or when having to do short tacks and accelerating off of each one, but for long runs it might even help since the boat has a little more length at the waterline and you might be able to carry more sail with more righting moment down low. Ruth and I will never know as we aren't aggressive sailors, but we can tell that the boat is more stable now sitting a couple inches lower in the water,

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[Sumner]

....You also need a air vent to allow air to escape as water is being used. Dave

You also need to get the supply line to the bladder and discharge line out of the inside of the ballast tank in a way that you would have confidence that the ballast tank would not leak into the boat's interior where the lines go in and out of the ballast tank. Could be done, but one more thing that would have to be considered.

We use the water...



...under the v-berth and ...



... aft of it ....



.... to also trim the boat out, side to side and fore/aft as we use up other supplies and gas. The individual containers allow that and are easy to take ashore in the inflatable to be refilled. If one leaks we loose either 4 or 7 gallons. I like the fact that the containers are pretty strong and we can place items on and around them without worries,

Sum
===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[Divecoz]

Good Ideas with your water storage Sumner and Very versatile.. I on the other hand, with my bladder , I do not need to bother with containers etc etc and I have noticed most places , have water for free or for sale but?? If they didn't and I needed it? I would have to buy a container or haul one heck of a lot of 1 gallon water bottles.. There are always trade offs, and we must first know what they are, and if we are willing to live with them..
What appealed to Sumner , didn't appeal to me and vice verse.. But we are each happy with our own personal conclusion..

[Sumner]

..I have noticed most places , have water for free or for sale but?? If they didn't and I needed it? I would have to buy a container or haul one heck of a lot of 1 gallon water bottles.....

If you go down in the Keys and say Marathon think about throwing in a couple 4-6 gallon containers. At Marathon when we were anchored on the Gulf side there was no easy place to take the Mac in but we could get into ...



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... 11-17.html

...Keys Fisheries with the inflatable and leave it there or could of gotten water there. Over on the Atlantic side at the city's facility at Boot Key Harbor there was a faucet on the seawall by the dinghy docks. Everyone took their dinghy's with water containers to the faucet and filled up.

On the Endeavour we have 86 gallons of water storage in 4 20 gallon and 1 6 gallon permanent tanks. We still plan on taking 4-5 of the 4 gallon containers full with us on the boat and then some place like Boot Key will take them to get water. About 4-5 trips would completely fill us up again.

One of the cruisers on another board said that one of the most difficult things about cruising the keys is actually finding places where you can go ashore with a dinghy. We also found that true. They are compiling a list of places to go ashore with the dinghy. When you live and sail one place you learn where to go. When the territory is new it isn't so easy.

Hopefully you will get to do a lot of cruising on both coasts and the Keys down there,

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[Divecoz]

Thanks for the Heads Up Sumner.. For sure I can find room for at least 1 of those 5 gallon units with a spout.. On my trip I had 30 in the bladder, 10 in bags one under the sink hooked up to my old/now back up hand pump, 4 gallons of distilled frozen in 10 day coolers, and a case of 12oz bottles tossed under the V Berth.. A 5 gallon with a spout would sure make replenishing the bladder easier if I need to transport it in the dink..

[Catigale]

The biggest is drawback to the go-large solutions is exactly that ...size.

If you install a 200 gallon bladder you will be filling/ emptying 100 gallons plus routinely to clean it ..that's a lot of pumping...50 minutes at 2gpm...

If you are a long weekend cruiser like me, work up your water usage first....I do 5 days out on anchor with 6 up and typically refill my 10 gallon tank once on that trip.once the kids fly the coop, Catigales 10 gallon will be perfect for the 2 of us.

[Divecoz]

I think Over Kill, is easy to do , and I admit I am guilty as charged , far to often.. It now looks like our needs for the 30 gallon bladder will be few and far between...But its there when we get the chance to take longer trips.. From here on in . Our boat will spend most of its life as a day sailor and or a weekender.. I dont want to remove the bladder or the pump, she will on occasion be used for longer trips .. What should I be considering for maintaining the bladder when not in use? Should I add 10 gallons of water and a couple cups of bleach and run a little water thru the pump every so often? Add a little more water and a tiny bit of bleach as needed?

The biggest is drawback to the go-large solutions is exactly that ...size.

If you install a 200 gallon bladder you will be filling/ emptying 100 gallons plus routinely to clean it ..that's a lot of pumping...50 minutes at 2gpm...

If you are a long weekend cruiser like me, work up your water usage first....I do 5 days out on anchor with 6 up and typically refill my 10 gallon tank once on that trip.once the kids fly the coop, Catigales 10 gallon will be perfect for the 2 of us.

[DaveB]

We are not long distance blue water cruisers. If we were we would set up a water catch cover over our boom and colect rain water thru filters to fill the tanks. Thats what I did thru my Ma. thru S.America on a 3 year voyage. One rain shower can easy fill a 40 gal. tank (let the rain rince off collector first.
We are a Mac. with restricted water and best to have a bladder tank out side the ballast and have water containers for drinking in a seperate storage (like Sumners)
We use sea water for washing dishes and pans and rince off with fresh water to conserve fresh water.
Use Joy for doing your salt water bathing as it sods up and lathers and rince off with fresh water.
On my 35 fter I instaled 2 Whale gusher foot pumps in the gally, one salt other fresh water.(so we can use both hand at the sink)
This worked out perfect for us in 3 years.(we only had a 40gal. water tank)That would easy last 60 days or more without rain.
But this is not needed for a Mac. thats on a week or two voyage away from any provisions.
Those of you who want to cruise the Bahamas I would highly recommend a large rain catcher funneled into 6 gal. water tanks.
Dave

I think Over Kill, is easy to do , and I admit I am guilty as charged , far to often.. It now looks like our needs for the 30 gallon bladder will be few and far between...But its there when we get the chance to take longer trips.. From here on in . Our boat will spend most of its life as a day sailor and or a weekender.. I dont want to remove the bladder or the pump, she will on occasion be used for longer trips .. What should I be considering for maintaining the bladder when not in use? Should I add 10 gallons of water and a couple cups of bleach and run a little water thru the pump every so often? Add a little more water and a tiny bit of bleach as needed?

The biggest is drawback to the go-large solutions is exactly that ...size.

If you install a 200 gallon bladder you will be filling/ emptying 100 gallons plus routinely to clean it ..that's a lot of pumping...50 minutes at 2gpm...

If you are a long weekend cruiser like me, work up your water usage first....I do 5 days out on anchor with 6 up and typically refill my 10 gallon tank once on that trip.once the kids fly the coop, Catigales 10 gallon will be perfect for the 2 of us.

[mastreb]

Another issue I've thought of here is the potential for the freshwater bladder to block the ballast tank and prevent it from filling. Consider the situation if you fill the freshwater tank first, it will expand to the contour of the ballast tank, effectively acting as a plug at that point. Then when you flood the tank, it will prevent seawater from going forward of itself.

This means that you'd always have to fill the freshwater tank after the seawater tank was full, with the ballast tank open to allow for outflow of displaced seawater.

Just a minor inconvenience in case you decide to do this. I'd do it with multiple small bladders (10g or less) positioned along the tank. you could drill a hole large enough for the neck and cap, push the bladder bag through it until the neck seated just below the cap collar, and then seal it with 4200. Repeat for as many tanks as necessary going forward along the ballast tank.

[Sumner]

I'd do it with multiple small bladders (10g or less) positioned along the tank. you could drill a hole large enough for the neck and cap, push the bladder bag through it until the neck seated just below the cap collar, and then seal it with 4200. Repeat for as many tanks as necessary going forward along the ballast tank.

I think he was talking about a box with holes in it within the ballast tank the would confine where the bladder is. I'm still wondering on his suggest and yours how you are going to get fill and discharge (maybe the same) line/lines in and out the the ballast tank to the bladder/bladders that would empty the bladders as you need them? Not saying you can't, but would there be a simple way?

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[mastreb]

I'm still wondering on his suggest and yours how you are going to get fill and discharge (maybe the same) line/lines in and out the the ballast tank to the bladder/bladders that would empty the bladders as you need them? Not saying you can't, but would there be a simple way?

Sum

I would run the lines between bladders outside the tank and rely on the inherent vacuum to move water between them (the siphon effect, essentially). As long as there's no air anywhere in the system, a series of bladders connected by tubes will drain to the lowest point automatically even if the tubes rise above the bladders, to the point that the water weight above the bladders in the tubes weighs less than the remaining water in the bladders. So you'd want your last bladder up forward to be higher than the rest, which would allow the entire system to drain to the aft-most bladder completely. You'd also want to fill from that highest bladder.

It's a complicated mod, to be sure.

[Catigale]

We are not long distance blue water cruisers.

Precisely.