New tow beast time

[mastreb]

Of course a big Ford, Suburban, Mercedes, or Lincoln truck or SUV will tow a Mac just dandy. The REAL challenge is to come up with the least expensive new vehicle that meets the necessary criteria:

1) Rated Tow weight of at least 4000 lbs. (I'd call that an absolute practical minimum)
2) 4WD or FWD (Having seen pickups slide down launch ramps, I see front traction as necessary)
3) Factory two package available

Is there anything under $30K that can do the job?

[dlandersson]

Have to be new?

Of course a big Ford, Suburban, Mercedes, or Lincoln truck or SUV will tow a Mac just dandy. The REAL challenge is to come up with the least expensive new vehicle that meets the necessary criteria:

1) Rated Tow weight of at least 4000 lbs. (I'd call that an absolute practical minimum)
2) 4WD or FWD (Having seen pickups slide down launch ramps, I see front traction as necessary)
3) Factory two package available

Is there anything under $30K that can do the job?

[DaveB]

New F150 XL with 3.7 litter motor @302hp. Tow 5500 lbs, options, Tow package with trans. cooler, semi slip rear axel. Quoated $23500 out the door.
19/23 mpg. without tow. I tow to many ramps and never sliped traction in my F150 1999 6 cylinder 202 hp standard trans thats rated for 2000 lb tow.
Sure mine is underrated but the new F150 with auto trans is more than enough for hauling my tandem heavy loaded Mac.X (towing 4500 lbs).
I have been doing this for over 4 years.
Dodge Ram just came out with the 6 cilinder 3.6 litter, 8 speed trans and 305 hp engine.
Pickups have made big changes for towing in past 2 years.
I have about 450 lbs weight on my ball and aditional 500 lbs of stuff in my bed, plenty of traction.
Dave

Of course a big Ford, Suburban, Mercedes, or Lincoln truck or SUV will tow a Mac just dandy. The REAL challenge is to come up with the least expensive new vehicle that meets the necessary criteria:

1) Rated Tow weight of at least 4000 lbs. (I'd call that an absolute practical minimum)
2) 4WD or FWD (Having seen pickups slide down launch ramps, I see front traction as necessary)
3) Factory two package available

Is there anything under $30K that can do the job?

[Russ]

So after downsizing the requirements a bit (admiral doesn't want a beast to drive around town). In our snowy climate I want AWD.

I'm still looking at:
Both should tow a Mac well

GMC Arcadia Denali
Gorgeous car, lots of smart features like heads up display and seat memory matched to the key FOB, cooled seats. Drives very nice and comfy inside.
Tow rated 5200 lbs
$48K

Toyota Highlander Limited
Not as pretty. Still has some cool features like totally keyless entry and ignition with proximitiy FOB.
Tow rated 5000 lbs
$38K Hybrid is $46k

So after my research, Consumer Reports rates the Highlander excellent in reliability, the Acadia, average.
On to Edmunds.com for owner reviews. Mixed in the GMC brand. Seems the American cars just aren't as reliable.

Looked at a Durango. Lots of car for the buck. Need to drive one next. Maybe a few more.

[Divecoz]

Yep I agree with much of the quoted post.. If It Works for you? Buy used and have $20K for gas.. I did and I am Very Happy.. .. I will mention too.. IIRC The H-2 is really just... a High End Fancy Chevy Avalanche?? Navigator is nothing more than the Ford with more bells and whistles.. I have a Dodge 1500 4.7 V-8 Quad-Cab 4x4..Bought it used, a couple years old with about 25K miles on it and I paid about $13K.. Yep Dodge's get Lousy mileage but I knew that when I bought it.. I as well knew that I would not be driving it much..I HATE DRIVING too many a@#$%^&holes on the roads now and most many of them claim to be professional drivers.. whats with that???? OK ... on with the show.. I got, on this trip, 1300 miles Chicago to Port Charlotte and with no doubt .. no less than, an additional 1000 lbs of Stuff in the Mac.. I got 13.8 mpg over all average and those hills in Tenn. and Ky can be killers.. I will mention as well My trailer did great and she's a stock trailer and 7 years old and was as I said it was over loaded .. Never An Issue.. ..

The absolute only way to go is with the H2-X!

With 315 HP you can tow all day long. The kids can plug their PS3/Wii/Xbox into the console and play games all the way to your destination. If they do get bored with games just pop a DVD in and stick the headphones on them and it is blissful silence! Mileage isn't too terrible. I can usually get 16 highway towing and I figure that's worth the price for the comfort.

As others have mentioned on here, we also have a '96 Chevy Tahoe with a 350ci engine. It tows just fine and gets 16cty-20hwy mpg. Parts are readily available and it is easy to work on. You can find these in good condition and relatively cheap. Insurance is also a lot cheaper on an older vehicle. That $20-30K you save on buying a new vehicle will buy a whole lot of fuel.

[seahouse]

New F150 XL with 3.7 litter motor @302hp. Tow 5500 lbs, options, Tow package with trans. cooler, semi slip rear axel. Quoated $23500 out the door.
19/23 mpg. without tow. I tow to many ramps and never sliped traction in my F150 1999 6 cylinder 202 hp standard trans thats rated for 2000 lb tow.
Sure mine is underrated but the new F150 with auto trans is more than enough for hauling my tandem heavy loaded Mac.X (towing 4500 lbs).
I have been doing this for over 4 years.
Dodge Ram just came out with the 6 cilinder 3.6 litter, 8 speed trans and 305 hp engine.
Pickups have made big changes for towing in past 2 years.
I have about 450 lbs weight on my ball and aditional 500 lbs of stuff in my bed, plenty of traction.
Dave



mastreb wrote:
Of course a big Ford, Suburban, Mercedes, or Lincoln truck or SUV will tow a Mac just dandy. The REAL challenge is to come up with the least expensive new vehicle that meets the necessary criteria:

1) Rated Tow weight of at least 4000 lbs. (I'd call that an absolute practical minimum)
2) 4WD or FWD (Having seen pickups slide down launch ramps, I see front traction as necessary)
3) Factory two package available

Is there anything under $30K that can do the job?

Yeah, I agree Dave.
–Mastreb- for any number of technical and safety reasons, FWD is the last choice of drivetrain, particularly when towing a heavy trailer. It does have an advantage if you’re backing up a hill, (or have a hitch on the front bumper) but that’s not a common situation, but, of course, FWD has an economical benefit, its very raison d’etre.

The presence of the trailer puts more weight on the rear wheels, the drive wheels in a RWD vehicle, where you want it. On FWD, on the other hand, the tongue weight reduces the weight on the drive wheels, so they lose traction. Even if they are located higher on a less slippery part of the ramp.

A limited slip differential is also an asset in conditions of marginal traction, but these aren’t so common, or necessary anymore, with modern traction control systems.

I agree with your other tow vehicle requirements – and I would add that the factory tow package must include a trailer stability program. That would be a deal-breaker for me. I would assume that, by now, all the manufacturers must have some version of it to remain competitive(?)

- Brian

[Catigale]

Russ,... Look at the absolute data on the reliability, not the relative ones.

I think you are typically talking about 3 incidents per year vs 2 on modern cars...while the second can be said the be 33% more reliable, one more incident per year has to be balanced against those intangibles factors like "the Admiral likes it"... In which case you can put you spreadsheets away...

[paulkayak]

Another option for a tow vehicle that is awesome in the snow and ice and a vehicle the miss will actually want to drive would be a Subaru. The Tribeca with tow package is rated at 3500lbs. The Outback with tow package is rated at 3000lbs. Ifyou can keep the weight in this range you will be impressed with the traction and the fuel economy that these vehicles offer with outstanding reliability. I am in northern Ontario and Our Outback is better in snow and on freezing rain than any other vehicle I have ever driven and I have owned many 4x4's.

[Tomfoolery]

Toyota Highlander Limited
Not as pretty. Still has some cool features like totally keyless entry and ignition with proximitiy FOB.
Tow rated 5000 lbs
$38K Hybrid is $46k

I tow with a Highlander with factory tow package. One nice thing regarding looks is that the bumper cover is different for the tow package, and the receiver is integrated nicely behind it, not hanging down below. It will also make life marginally easier if you need the spare, as it's cable supported under the trunk area. And of course it has the larger radiator and higher wattage fan, plus a tranny cooler.

But do be aware that it's a relatively small car to tow that boat with, even with its 5k tow rating. The wheelbase is shorter than a typical pickup, and is even shorter (with narrower track) than the Admiral's Honda Odyssey minivan, which actually tows my like a dream.

I'm not saying it can't or wont'; just that you have to be careful about tongue weight and sway. It has plenty of power, solid brakes (make damn sure the trailer brakes are top-notch), and is very comfortable. Typical Toyota nav system (which I like a lot), good mirrors, plenty of visibility (something the Admiral always complains about, in every car), and just fine on the highway as long as you don't tow too fast.

I get about 18-19 mpg local, 25 mpg highway (no trailer), which I do a ton of. I keep it under 70 mph, and under 60 with a trailer usually, though I've snuck up on 70 without realizing it. I don't know what the long-distance mileage will be yet with the boat in tow, as I've only towed it short-ish distances on the highway so far, not enough to get a good feel or actual measurement for gas mileage.

The only potential issue I've sensed it sway, and even with a dual-axle trailer, I have to be at least a little conscious of loading and tongue weight. It certainly does NOT feel like I'm pulling an elephant, just that I have to be a little careful at high speeds. The steering could be a little sensitive at high speeds, too. I don't think this vehicle has electronic anti-sway or other stability technology.

I don't have any pics of the car/trailer combo, unfortunately. Only with the minivan. But it's a small car with a big trailer, for sure.

Edit: Oh, and it's full-time AWD. I've felt it kick in a few times on slippery boat ramps - you can feel it slip slightly then grab when it does. Being in snow country, we try to always have one of two cars with 4WD or AWD, especially since I have to travel when it's least convenient.

[Jim Bunnell]

If new is imperative, ignore this - but I must say I like having two inexpensive vehicles to cover all uses. I tow with a 2001 GMC Yukon Denali - all were tricked out, top of the line 4wd SUVs with a full tow package including load leveling and a tow setting for the trans. Rated around 10,000 lb, and tows the Mac without noticing it's there. 600 mile 1 day trips from Detroit to the North Channel without a white knuckle the whole way. When I don't need room/towing, I run around town in a 1992 Miata. Pure fun, good milage, minimal upkeep, great reliability and did I mention - fun, especially with the top down. Both vehicles can be bought at a low price, and the combined price will still leave a huge gas fund compared to buying new. Insurance is very low. Best of both worlds.

[Sea Wind]

1) Rated Tow weight of at least 4000 lbs. (I'd call that an absolute practical minimum)

We do a couple of long trips every year with a family of 4, so I would not consider something under 5000 lbs as the bare minimum. Keep in mind that the towing rate for most cars assumes two 150lbs passengers and very light luggage. Once you start adding weight to the vehicle the towing capacity decreases drastically. You can usually find this information in the owner's manual or online.

See this thread for the 2010 Honda Pilot towing chart:
http://macgregor26x.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 4&start=15

Pedro

[kurz]

1. Once you start adding weight to the vehicle the towing capacity decreases drastically. Pedro

This is interesting! Here in Europa we do not have this restriction!
I can load my car to the maximum weight, and then I can tow the max weight that is written in the papers of the car.
So on the other way round, if I ride an empty car, the towing weight is NOT higher.

By the way it makes no sense for me to tow a big trailer with an empty and therefore light car.

[Starscream]

Just for example: http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicle ... Z402462527. Probably could get this one for under 8k.

I use a 2006 Durango as a dedicated towbeast and to pick up 4x8 sheets of drywall or plywood from Home Depot (have to tie the tailgate down). I average 12mpg towing the X, 17mpg not towing. Very comfortable, tons of room and power, and since new only had to change the throttle position sensor and the shocks.

I offset the carbon footprint of the beast by driving a 2004 Toyota Echo (46mpg combined city-hwy average) during my regular commute. Contrary to what one would expect I have had many more repairs on the Echo than on the Durango although they have similar mileage.

[RobertB]

Another option for a tow vehicle that is awesome in the snow and ice and a vehicle the miss will actually want to drive would be a Subaru. The Tribeca with tow package is rated at 3500lbs. The Outback with tow package is rated at 3000lbs. Ifyou can keep the weight in this range you will be impressed with the traction and the fuel economy that these vehicles offer with outstanding reliability. I am in northern Ontario and Our Outback is better in snow and on freezing rain than any other vehicle I have ever driven and I have owned many 4x4's.

While possible, I would not recommend a vehicle of this class if you are going to tow more than occasionally. The rated tow capacity is too low for all but the few that keep thier boats stripped down. I mayself bought my thinking I could tow with a Volvo XC70. While it did work, towing with a relatively small vehicle at (or beyond) its rated limit was a little nerve wracking. All said, I more than once just amazed other boaters on how effortlessly the Volvo AWD pulled the boat up the ramp. The current F150 w/ Ecoboost is just awsome and even my wife is comfortable driving.
As far as awesome on snow and ice, few advanced AWD vehicles (as in the awsome ones in bad weather like my XC70 or the Outback) have the tow rating needed for our boats. If you want to see what vehicles are really good in bad weather, travel to New England and north and look at the parking lots. The two most common vehcles are Volvo V70/XC70 and Subaru Outbacks. After that you will see pickups and Jeeps.

Of course a big Ford, Suburban, Mercedes, or Lincoln truck or SUV will tow a Mac just dandy. The REAL challenge is to come up with the least expensive new vehicle that meets the necessary criteria:

1) Rated Tow weight of at least 4000 lbs. (I'd call that an absolute practical minimum)
2) 4WD or FWD (Having seen pickups slide down launch ramps, I see front traction as necessary)
3) Factory two package available
Is there anything under $30K that can do the job?

To address you concerns:
(Last) Under $30k new - short answer "No". Used - yes.
(1) I would recommend a tow rating of at least 5000 lbs - less likely you will be towing more than you are rated for. BUT, this puts you in a different class of vehicles - one that is generally expensive to use as an everyday commuting/family vehicle (as in generally a heavy gas pig). If you are going to use a lesser vehicle, suggest a tandem axle trailer. Keep in mind the towing capacity of a vehicle is most likely a function of the tires (how much load can they take). Suspension, transmission, and brakes also work in.
(2) For boat ramps, advanced AWD is going to have the best grip (essentially FWD with RWD assist as needed) but not a common type of transmission in heavier duty vehicles.
4WD - definitely good, suggest making sure you have a locking rear differential. FWD - absolutely not unless you are going to launch with a front mounted hitch.
(3) Factory tow package - there is a wide range of what this means. My 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan with a 3.8L engine, long wheelbase, AWD, and Nivomat shocks would have made a good tow vehicle. The factory tow package cosisted of only a towbar, wire harness, and transmission cooler. All easily added for about $200 in parts.
I upgraded the Volvo XC70 with a factory harness and 2" tow receiver (this car is one of the primary tow vehicles in Europe). All connections and software already built into the vehicle.
My new F150 was special ordered because the dealer claimed that I could not upgrade after delivery to full function (I believe he was B__S___ing me) - included a stability/anti sway tow control function, integrated brake controler (not needed for surge brakes), towbar, and harness.

Thanks for the response Robert. I do have the check engine light on for a couple years now (yea, my bad..lol) and have had the codes read and was told it was the O2 sensor..but apparently, there is one on each cylinder and to figure out which one ias bad is not so easy, so, I've just been putting it off. And as I said, the engine runs very well so it wasn't like I really needed to do anything about it immediately. After reading up on it a bit, I think i found that the worst possible thing that could be happening is that my mileage is a bit off...although I don't ever remember ever getting better mileage than what I'm getting currently either. And I did drive this SUV for a few years before the engine light came on. I know that other bad thing about driving it with the engine light on is that if something else happens, it will be masked by the O2 sensor issue.

And I do try to drive it very economically when towing. I know how the mileage gets much better at 55-60 for example versus 70 mph and how too many starts and stops can affect the mileage. Coming back from the Keys last year, the portion that I did on US41 at about 55-60 mph, I was able to get up to about 11mpg, and if I make a lot of starts and stops, it can even drop down as low as 8.8 or so...but my mean is in the 9.5-10 range and that is probably at an average speed of about 68mph. And believe me, with my one year old tandem axle and the V8 power, I could definitely go faster, but I try to keep the mileage reasonable (and reduce the number of splatted bugs on the boat parts too).

Anyway, I was just wondering since some people were reporting getting 15-16 mpg with a V8. Good to hear that your new truck is not getting a whole lot better than mine. I could see how you could get better with a smaller engine, but you would also be wearing out the motor faster too I suppose.

I bet my mileage would be better if I drove more like an adult and accelerated slowly and kept my speed down. Really, I have way too much fun driving it.
As far as the O2 sensor, the OBDII code should tell you which one is bad. The sensor(s) on the engine side of the catalytic is the one that controls the engine fuel/air mixture. It sends out a waveform somewhat like a sine wave (always adjusting up and down). The one past the catalytic should be sending out a realtively flat signal - all this sensor registers is the condition of the catalytic converter. If this one is bad, will not affect how the engine runs.
As far as the smaller engine, what I have read is that the Ecoboost is built with pretty robust components and should last a long time. Similar reason diesel engines go for so long since they are built with very robust components to withstand compression detonation. My engine is warrentied for life as long as the dealer does the maintenance. I am beginning to believe on many vehicles that the engine, if cared for according to the maintenance schedule, should outlast the rest of the vehicle. My 25 year old Plymouth Voyager's engine still runs great (first of the 3.0 V6's) but the rest of the vehicle is disintegrating.

[Tomfoolery]

Just as a point of reference, the manual for my '12 Highlander with factory tow package, V6, and AWD, states (summarized) that it has:

GCWR = 9930 lb (4510 kg)
TWR = 5000 lb (2000 kg) [conversion is not right, though]
GVWR = 6000 lb (2727 kg)

and goes on to define the GCWR (gross combination weight rating) as the total weight of the vehicle plus occupants plus luggage, along with the weight of the trailer with its cargo. The GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) is the max loaded weight of the vehicle alone, and is on the nameplate on the door post, not in the manual.

If you subtract the GTW from the GCWR, you get 4930 lb (2241 kg), which is a long way from the 6000 lb (2727 kg) GVWR.

Edit: I just notices that the GVWR includes the tongue load, so there is a bit of overlap between the trailer gross and the vehicle gross, as part of the trailer is on the vehicle (hitch ball), and it's all rolled up into the GCWR.

Oh, and the manual also says that above 2000 lb (909 kg) TWR, you must use anti-sway equipment.