Tattoo pricing and options

[mastreb]

Hey Russ,

Yes, those are all concerns of mine as well. At this point we're not trying to make money on chartering a Mac so much as simply offset some of the cost of a second boat and satisfy my dislike of owning things that are not doing anything. We do have a rental property so yes, I'm well familiar with those problems. I can only imagine it's much worse with a depreciable asset.

I hear you on the maintenance and expense, and I too am very leery of the general public renting a Mac. If I were just trying to start a charting company, I wouldn't consider it, and that's why I'm strongly considering restricting it to Mac owners and wanna-be Mac owners, rather than the "deal seeking public".

Ultimately, if we decide it turned out to be too expensive we can cut our losses and sell it for no more loss than the cost of an east-coast vacation anyway.

What I really ought to find is someone who would consider storing and maintaining the boat in exchange for the use of it when we're not in town. They'd have to be willing to put the boat in for us and take it out, but I'd happily pay the capital cost of the boat if I had no recurring costs...

Matt

[Russ]

Matt,
I think you have the right idea. Offset cost of ownership and you might be okay. Limit who rents it.

Sumner has a boat in Florida that he uses when there. He still has his Mac that he takes on the trailer because it's portable.
That's kind of where I'm headed. I was thinking of a winter snowbird boat. But it wouldn't be a Mac. The Mac is a perfect boat for me here. Our lake is huge, but there are no marina services, so we must trailer and launch ourselves. The Mac fits this perfectly and it has a lot of room for such a small boat. Plus, you can take it on the road to other places.

If I buy a boat on a coast, it will be something bigger than a Mac. Since I won't be schlepping it around, the trailer aspect doesn't come into play. For that, I might consider a marina in the Gulf someplace. If I got bored of sailing there, there are plenty of crew that would love to get paid to move it for me.

I guess we all have reasons why we bought a Mac. For me, it fits my local boating needs well. But if I wanted to fly to the gulf for a week onboard, it would need more space and creature comforts.

You will figure something out that works for you. Would love to hear your journey and deciding factors.

--Russ

[Catigale]

Matt - maybe you need mast up storage on the Cape?

Im not sure why you want Florida anyhow (no offense to anyone from Sunshine State) since you have great winter sailing in SAN already.

Im thinking come hit the summer venue in MA to escape the SAN heat??

[mastreb]

Matt - maybe you need mast up storage on the Cape?

Im not sure why you want Florida anyhow (no offense to anyone from Sunshine State) since you have great winter sailing in SAN already.

Im thinking come hit the summer venue in MA to escape the SAN heat??

Heat? What heat? We'd be going to Florida to visit the heat

We'd like to eventually sail all the east-coast venues. We've got plenty more to do here on the West Coast of course, but I've lived in the west my entire life and while I've not sailed San Francisco Bay I've driven over it a dozen times. Same with Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver.

Given yours and Russ' advice to look into tax and registration laws, I've determined that I can buy a boat out of state and register it in CA without paying CA sales tax (or use tax) so long as the boat spends its first 12 months after initial use outside the state of CA. So that's going to save me $5000, and is certainly worth doing. However, CA does notify whatever state the boat is sitting in, and that state may elect to come after me for a use or sales tax, which means I'd want to have the boat sit in a state that doesn't charge a use tax to out-of-state registered boats. CA registration should also get me out of any local inspection requirements, and no inspection is required in CA.

So the long story short is that I will most likely be choosing my storage location based on state tax law more than anything else, since it's all unknown adventure to us anyway.

[mastreb]

From this nice summary:

http://www.boatus.com/gov/states/

It appears that both Rhode Island and Delaware exempt boats from sales and use tax across the board, but Delaware has a gross receipts tax on dealers that will increase the price of a boat purchased there. But keeping a boat there that's purchased elsewhere would not be a problem.

Most other states vary from 2% to 7%, and some but not all give credit for taxes paid to other states. The grace period for registering a boat that will be staying in the state varies from 30 to 90 days.

[Russ]

My buddy in Kentucky registered his RV in Montana via a company like this http://www.mtvehicles.com/
He created an LLC and the service company renews it each year. I suppose you could then sell the vehicle to yourself after a period of time for 1 dollar and register it in another state. This service company registered the vehicle and sent him the plates. There is no vehicle inspection. Saved him $15k in state taxes.

Montana offers permanent (one time) registration. My boat cost a one time $295 registration fee. Every two years they ask me to renew the FWP sticker which is free. I think this is how they count the number of boats actually being used since permanent reg is forever. I bought my boat in Washington and the dealer gave me all this stuff for sales tax in my state. Didn't need it. No sales tax here. Was nice last year when I bought 2 new cars.

Now I don't condone circumventing local taxes, but an argument could be made for finding a way to not pay taxes in a state the boat won't even be used in. That seems unfair as well.
I used to see a lot of big boats registered in Delaware. I'm not sure why, I think they were corporate boats and were avoiding corporate red tape.
Back in 1990, our government instituted the 10% yacht tax which did a fine job to the boat building industry (ie: destroyed it). The few buyers left, as usual, adapted to the new tax and started taking delivery of boats 12 miles offshore or registering them in foreign ports.

Whatever you do, just be sure it's legal. Not worth getting fined over a few thousand dollars.

--Russ

[mastreb]

I'm not going to go to extraordinary measures to avoid taxes, but if we're buying a boat in Florida for use along the east coast, what business is it of California's? I see no reason why I'd pay tax here. Happy to pay it in the state where I keep it.

Places we would consider keeping it irrespective of taxes: Florida, Maryland, Delaware, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. Two of those happen to charge no tax, and Delaware is an easy tow over to the Chesapeake, so it will likely win.

The states sure conspire to make this complicated however, requiring you to register your boat when you're in their state for an extended vacation? Rediculous.

[Russ]

I'm not going to go to extraordinary measures to avoid taxes, but if we're buying a boat in Florida for use along the east coast, what business is it of California's? I see no reason why I'd pay tax here. Happy to pay it in the state where I keep it.

Places we would consider keeping it irrespective of taxes: Florida, Maryland, Delaware, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. Two of those happen to charge no tax, and Delaware is an easy tow over to the Chesapeake, so it will likely win.

The states sure conspire to make this complicated however, requiring you to register your boat when you're in their state for an extended vacation? Rediculous.

I agree. California has no right to tax your boat that never sees that state. The taxman's arm seems to try to reach anyway. What states should really be upset over is internet sales that ship without collecting tax. On the same note, as a vendor I don't want to collect 47 different sales taxes.

As for requiring registration when you're in their state, that also seems a bit ridiculous and bothersome. Who has time to do that and why should you have to? Get a new title and registration every time you visit a state? I also wonder how much it is enforced. Especially with a trailerable vessel that moves around. If you have a keel boat in a slip for 5 years, I could understand, but if it's got wheels and moves, states should not expect compliance. I know next to nothing about motor vehicle laws, but I have seen semis with multiple plates. Perhaps this is why.

[yukonbob]

Thats nothing. In parts of Canada they want you to pay taxes every time you re-sell the boat (amoung almost everything else)!! So technically durring the life of the item in question you could end up paying more in taxes than the originall price! That's criminal

[Russ]

Thats nothing. In parts of Canada they want you to pay taxes every time you re-sell the boat (amoung almost everything else)!! So technically durring the life of the item in question you could end up paying more in taxes than the originall price! That's criminal

Same down here. Most states charge sales tax every time the vehicle/boat is sold.
Death and taxes. Actually, sometimes even in death you can't escape taxes.

[Catigale]

Ny collects tax when you register the boat in the state, not when it is sold. You only have to register it if it has a motor.

There are some states which aggressively look out for out of state stickers and go after them if they are in the state for 90 days or more. I thought FL was one of these from BoatUS stories I recall.

[Russ]

Ny collects tax when you register the boat in the state, not when it is sold. You only have to register it if it has a motor.

New Jersey collects the sales tax at the DMV when titling. You technically don't own it until the state issues you a title.
They require ALL boats 12' or longer operated in public waters must be registered, even if not motorized. All motorized boats must be registered. My Force 5 sailboat was 13' long and need to be numbered. Many people I knew would sell their vehicles and way understate the selling price on the title to reduce sales tax. Dealers, obviously, wouldn't do this.

Bob makes an interesting point above. If you think about it, every time a person sells a vehicle/boat, the state taxes it again. Even though the original purchaser paid full tax when it was new. If it turned over many times, the tax could exceed the original value. Can't fight 'em.

[mastreb]

After much research and thought, including planning out our next ten summer vacations (while the kids are home) we've decided to hold off on a second boat until the kids are out of the house, and then go ahead and do it at that time. The bottom line is that as much as we liked sailing the east coast, there are other things we want to do with the kids while they're still with us and they get enough sailing here.

So it'll be a few years before we can justify buying another boat.

The upshot of all my research however is that if you buy a boat outside your home state, and then move it directly to Rhode Island or Delaware, you can save yourself a few thousand dollars in taxes legally.

[seahouse]

Hey Matt --

There are clubs that have boats that members can take out at various locations. The Freedom Boat Club is one in Sarasota that has a sailboat. I'm not sure how it works, but it seems that you might buy a boat shared with others and as a member (for monthly fees) you can go to any of their locations and take out a boat. Maybe they would consider adding a Mac to their stable? Did you come across anything like that?

- Brian.

http://freedomboatclub.com/locations/3- ... -fl/boats/

[Y.B.Normal]

A boat rental outfit in Door County (Sturgeon Bay) Wis rents a 26X for $275 for 8 hours.
I'm not sure if they do overnight rentals.