Daysailor or Cruiser?

[Moe]

if certain X (and M owners) can't leave it alone I will weigh in with scathing wit and politically incorrect insults on the board and in PMs that will defy any pychcological abuse you have ever endured or nightmared about.

Phil... one more time... I'm not bashing anyone's boat. Why the threat to do those things if a debate you don't like continues? Why not do as Frank says and just not read it? There are mature M owners here who don't let my posts upset them. They know I'm sincere. Why not join them rather than react so extremely?

While roughly 600 buyers over about 17-18 months liked 2003-2004 26M enough to buy it instead of a used X, it didn't take MacGregor very long to change the layout back toward that of the 26X. Why did they change it, if not because they weren't happy with the sales?

By the end of April, roughly 275-300 buyers over about 8-9 months will have liked the 2005 26M enough to buy it, instead of a used X OR earlier M. This isn't significantly higher than the previous M, and still near half of 26X sales.

Yes, some have chosen them over a used X, or now, used M. But Roger has to look at the other side of the coin with respect to prior sales, that nearly as many have chosen NOT to buy them.

It's possible Roger is downsizing as he approaches retirement, and a laid back roughly 1.5 boat per day production is just fine with him, but I don't think so. His video brags his factory is capable of 8 boats/day, but I'd bet that' on s a 2-shift operation. How long can he maintain that huge facility with such a low production rate? Perhaps forever, if he continues to raise prices. Roger's reaction to the first M sales strongly suggests more changes are in the works.

These are the shortcomings he needs to address for a boat that's supposed to be a pocket cruiser, and who's buyers only consist of 25% daysailors according to this poll. In my OPINION, these are significant shortcomings. Clearly some here don't think so.

1. The M's V-berth can't be extended on the starboard side. The X's can.

2. The M's V-berth can be extended on the port side, but the extension will block the head entrance. Extending the X V-berth on the port side doesn't block anything.

1+2 = The M's V-berth is suitable only for children, very short adults, or average sized adults who sleep in the fetal position. The X's V-berth, unextended is the same, however, it can be extended and used by adults, even taller ones.

3. The M's aft berth is blocked in the center by the ladder. The X's ladder swings up out of the way.

4. The M's aft berth is blocked and shortened on the starboard side by MacGregor's only provision for large cooler storage. That larger cooler must be lifted out for an average sized adult to use that berth. The X's starboard aft berth can be accessed from the center and is not needed for cooler storage.

5. The '05 M's aft berth is blocked on the port side by the galley in any position except full forward. To move it forward requires relocating and storing the aft port side seat cushions elsewhere in the boat. The X's port aft berth can be accessed from the center.

3+4+5 = The only berth in the '05 M adequate in length for the average size adult is difficult to access and is the only place MacGregor provides for large cooler storage.

6. The '05 26M dinette is lower, the table and aft dinette seat are narrower, not only reducing the seating, but precluding out of the way storage of a large cooler. The X dinette is higher, the table and the aft dinette seat wider, and the latter will house a cooler as large as a 5-day 70 quart.

7. To have conversational seating on the '05 M's port side, the galley must be moved aft of full forward, and the cushions previously relocated to slide it forward for aft berth access reinstalled. The X's dinette and port side seating are colocated without having to shuffle cushions and slide a galley, and with no bulkhead or trunk between them.

8. The M's head doesn't have a sink. The X's does.

9. The M's head can't be used for showering. The X's can.

10. The '05 head can only accomodate the smaller potty. The X, and '03-'04 M, can take the larger potty.

To "fix" these will probably require going back to a swing centerboard. Roger's gone back and forth between daggerboard and centerboard over the years, so yet another switch shouldn't surprise anyone.

As I said, I feel strongly about this. Even though we bought an X, I'd still like to have one with a little more deadrise, and would probably even trade for a new one if MacGregor makes it. That's what I'm shooting for.

--
Moe

[Divecoz]

Its much to do with the economy as well, and . . . .your leaving that BIG part of the picture OUT!
The X as fine a boat as it is was . . .was sold much during some very strong economic times in this country. The money for many is just not there right now several maybe numerous posters on this board have made reference to NOT doing this or that . . . . this year and that was just in relationship to the cost of gas ..!
Its the economy. . . . a lot of big ticket "TOY" items are seeing sluggish sales some of them for the last several years .
Richard
Chicago/Cozumel

[vatalon]

I've voted for day-sailing only. Not because I do not want to cruise, but I single hand and do not have the time to cruise at this time (retired military and now self-employed).

I tend to like my toys new and would have probably purchased an M if they had been available in 2001. As is, I'm perfectly happy with my X as my first boat and I learn something new each time I take it out. I spend allot of time reading this forum and any sailing magazine I can get my hands on. Like many of you, I have memorized the WM and Boater's World catalogs. And just love the idea of owning a boat that I can modify however I want.

I do not always agree with some of the more knowledgable contributers here but tend to just skim over the "P'ing" contests, so when I do not have anything good to say, I try not to say anything at all.

I believe this discussion board is the best place to learn how to improve and enjoy my boat!

Thanks to all and Happy Sailing as our new season starts.

[Moe]

Richard, I agree that the economy may be part of the boating industry's problem. Some speculate that the "keep up with the Jones'" mentality is part of the problem. Recreational boat sales appear to have migrated from many smaller family boats to sales of big multi-outboard bluewater boats... combined with huge sales numbers of mostly foreign-produced jet skis. I wonder if like many American manufacturers, Roger has contributed to the "Grow Boating" advertising campaign the industry is about to kick off?

The RV industry is doing better in the years since 9/11 than they have in years before that. The "Go RVing" campaign is often given credit, but many say it's fueled by unspent travel dollars, as a result of terrorism. Airstream, a big ticket purchase, has really been on a roll in the last few years. Many expect rising fuel prices to temper this boom, however. This would be an ideal opportunity for sailboat manufacturers to band together, promote the fuel savings advantage, and grab some of those dollars from the RV industry.

Economically speaking, the M's higher price certainly predicts fewer new and more used sales than when the price was lower.

Do these factors combined account entirely for MacGregor's large sales drop? That's certainly open to reasoned debate, but I don't think so. I do agree that the design issues are not entirely responsible.

--
Moe

[Casey]

Haven't been to the board since last Sunday. Interesting comments for the poll. Not sure what statements can be made about the results since the poll appears to include all Mac owners, including all models. Or if the poll answers the original question or questions. It seems when you include all models without a split out or making the poll more specific, one can only make very general presumptions.

Happens fairly often in the literature where researchers will design a study or poll thinking they are answering a specific question and at the end of the study or during the peer review process find that their specific question was not answerred at all, which leads to another study design if enough interest.

[ALX357]

Frank C, and others,
... to a few comments i would like to respond... many of the items you listed as common to Mac 26 boats are universal topics for all boats, not especially pertinent to Macs alone, fiberglass, trailering, etc. The X and M are similar in manufacture but no more than a 26 to the 2S,D, or a 25, or earlier boats. I do think many of the topics are approached differently between X and M boats, and many solutions are unique to each.
I like to read about and think about the M boats, and as i said, and its a given that friendships don't depend on boat particulars, but thrive on lifestyle similarities, so i am ok with all the M threads, but i'm sticking with the belief that the board would work better if M and X had separate titles.... BTW, it's great now, so any improvements would be incremental, not radical. lookinig forward to seeing more of it all, M and X.

[Rolf]

I know I should stay out, but it's too much fun! I have to agree with Moe on the economy stuff-- RV's are hot, as well as house sales. If you got a house, as most mac26ers do, you've got a line of credit to buy a boat easily.

As someone who can honestly say I would never have bought a boat if it wasn't for the x, which just bowled me over, I have to say it would have taken me a bit longer with the m. The concept is there, but the x's powerboat look that also sails as opposed to m's sailboat look that also motors were a big factor. Seeing the m's graceful lines on the water would have set the hook with her.

About the changes to the m, Inmon told me Roger was listening. My only problem is they do look a bit like aftermarket/add-on, albeit functional ones, because they are. The sliding galley seems way cool, and you don't have to cook on your knees anymore, though you still need them to pee.

But all this may be moot. Good news, Moe. Inmon says Roger is considering a slightly larger boat, at least in beam. Please please please -- a 28 foot x with a 9 foot beam, 150 horse outboard with built in water/holding tanks/shower would be my dream! I'll have to see it to believe it.
Rolf

[Catigale]

More dribble, no sailing content...fair warning

The economy is fine, I dont think that is the lack of money for an entry level boat like the Mac in this economy.

Boating (power, sail, cruising, racing, etc) requires a large time commitment. The array of leisure time activities that are available is staggering....simply put, boating is feeling these pressures. The Mac is a great boat to survive this trend, as you can opt to not slip it, travel with it, and otherwise use it in a flexible manner unlike a keel boat.


Consider this on leisure time:
Does anyone with kids sahre my feeling that the kids have more (and too many) things going on than when you were a kid??


Same with adults - Sail magazine has had some good articles on diappearing marinas (a complex issue) but declining numbers in boating is one factor - not economic, but interest driven they claim.

[Scott]

I gotta throw pie too!!

I didnt realize that you had not sailed your boat yet Moe.

But C'mon Joined: 01 Aug 2004, Posts: 1183. Get a hobby dude like say, "sailing"

Im just funnin you moe but you sure come across as the creepy love child of Great Looper Dave and Mighetto.

I know that was a mean spike but, oh well it was fun!

Go sailing by jinkies!

P.S. No offense meant for the jibe Frank and Dave. Or is it frank and beans?

Oh yeah, the powl. We stay on ours almost every weekend (both nights) at the lake 20 mins from our house. We also tow it out of town 2-4 times per year for a week or so at a time.

Feel free to correct my spelling!

[Richard O'Brien]

2. The M's V-berth can be extended on the port side, but the extension will block the head entrance.

3. The M's aft berth is blocked in the center by the ladder.

3+4+5 = The only berth in the '05 M adequate in length for the average size adult is difficult to access
Moe[/quote]
Gee I'm ging to regret this, but it's snowing here and i really need my boating fix this weekend. Moe, I truly respect you for your electro-mechanical experience. i suspect your one of those guys who doesn't just have a garageful of cool tools, but a lot of them are pretty nearly worn out. With respect to this, and simply said: It isn't what you have .but what you do with it that counts. i'm going to post some mods this summer on my interior, but it's still a work in progress. In the event that someone is pondering the purchase of a new M, I feel that i have to answer some of the aforementioned remarks.
RE: 2. Extending the port side v-berth does not block the head. by simply adding a small 10 in. high x 18" wide x 18" long box, you add 1-1/2 ft. to the existing 6' berth, and gain a nice storage locker. i am over 6' tall,and just don't like my pillow falling off the top always. The approx. 12" path to the head remains open.
3,4, The m's aft berth is huge by small boat standards, and you can sit up in it and read,.. comfortably. Yes you do have to move the cooler if you're sharing the berth with another couple...Hee-hee!. Sorry, just messing with ya! but, most small boats require moving stuff around to accommodate different activities, and Macgregor didn't invent the sliding galley.

[Moe]

Im just funnin you moe but you sure come across as the creepy love child of Great Looper Dave and Mighetto.

I never saw GLD's posts, but at least Mighetto is generally civil and literate, if not logical.

Scott, I'll return the favor by pointing out that in this post you've come across as the creepy love child of divecoz and You Yours.

I can fun back. No hard feelin's and no offense intended toward your parents there.
--
Moe

[Moe]

Good news, Moe. Inmon says Roger is considering a slightly larger boat, at least in beam. Please please please -- a 28 foot x with a 9 foot beam, 150 horse outboard with built in water/holding tanks/shower would be my dream! I'll have to see it to believe it.
Rolf

Even 6" more beam would make the Mac interior much nicer and still be trailerable without permits. Lots of RVs are 8'6". Two more feet in length could be spread 1' to the V-berth, to make it indisputably usable without extension, and another foot to the head/sink area to make it a better shower. Or maybe some extra to the cockpit.

However, both of these would probably conflict with the Holy Grail of making dealers buy 'em in pairs in a container, and the extra beam would require angling them in a shipping container for overseas sales.

--
Moe

[Scott]

Haha, None taken Moe.

I dont take myself seriously enough to be offended. Nice to see that you dont either,

on a different note get the boat off of the driveway and go sailing!!!

[Moe]

Workin' on it again...

--
Moe

[waternwaves]

Rolf,,

Times are a changing....
your right, it is time for a new boat...its not 1995 anymore dorothy....

We've had another generation in materials/construction techniques..... engines...... time for the new boat to put them in...

but lets make it right.....like the 26X was (based on sales numbers) and the head turning like the M is., (these little boats do have a cool factor attached to them) and just think.....you get to play with more equipment systems than a regular sailboat or motorboat.

32-34 ft OAL..8'-6" beam....kind of like a 26M+8X
empty weight of around 2600-2800, no balsa...X cockpit, M rear berth. taller fractional rig..., two empty aft lockers for small equipment such as watermaker, waterheater, small genset etc.

put that extra 6 to 8 ft split as possibly this....
18" in the bow berth...1ft. in the head/shower and the rest in the salon/ cabin

or possiblly graft the 8 ft onto a pilothouse salon, in the middle of the boat..(this is the layout that is looking really good...lol)

Roger....I have weight and balance data and sketches available....lol..
And hmmmmm.....maybe Perry would like to design another trailer sailor...lol (could I have mine supersized and in aluminum to go please...hehehhee)

Personally I cannot see buying another trailer sailor unless it has most of these features.... and that is a small nusiance for me. The trailerability is an absolute must.....and with the number of SUV's out there capable of towing. c1500's, F150's and Ram 1500's are more than enough for moving a boat of that size if it is designed well.

130 -150 hp lightweight DI E-tec engine or design for one of the new design lighter weight 4 strokes on the horizon. 20kt real cruise at design weight.

Suffiecent tankage...
tandem trailer

But.... I guess.....I will stick with my old trusty X for a while....as it is outfitted comfortably.... albeit too damn short for a guy 6-2......

but if the production numbers are true..... and they learned with the 26, there probably is capacity to produce 200 Mac34Ynots a year...

Good thing I dont know how to design or build anything with fiberglass.. and vacuum bagging is what I do when I change the full bag.


truth is ......and Cat pointed this out earlier.....the young people that would be getting into boating now....are part of the nintendo, xbox and pentium/powerPC/Ipod generation.... and kids today are the owners tomorrow. and they are not particularly suited to sailing....they now have kayaks, , jetskiis, Ski and wakeboard boats, dive gear, and are terminally attention deficit..... It is getting to the point I avoid taking even friends kids on the boats..

And truth is.....Mac could make a stripped shell boat.....of that size.....have expensive accessories designed to customize and fit....and that business model would sell.....,

resin/ workmanship/ and hardware costs..... could still keep the cost of a 34 footer the same as a midsized sedan....which is what it was in 1995 for a 26X.

Enjoy all....

now......where did I leave that millon dollars for the molds.....lol

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