Weak links in the macgregor

[sailboatmike]

Personally I think the Mac is at her best in nasty conditions, lets not forget while some on here say she is a light boat in reality compared to just about any other trailer boat I know of she is heavy once the ballast is in.

Not many others carry 750kg (1650lbs) of ballast and the M has a additional 120 odd Kg (264lbs) in fixed ballast.

A quick calculation shows the the water ballasted power sailors have close to a 45% ballast ratio, thats almost unheard of and one of the reasons sailing in light conditions can be a bit, shall we say challenging.

If I was going to spend a couple of months living on a trailer boat there would be no other choice but a Mac, I find the interior fit out on the Hunters and other clones really uses the space poorly.

Sure I would beef up all the standing rigging one size, but all in all they are a great platform

[kadet]

Not many others carry 750kg (1650lbs) of ballast and the M has a additional 120 odd Kg (264lbs) in fixed ballast.

Not what Rodger had to say about the

The 300 pounds of permanent ballast replaces an equal amount of water ballast, so the removable water ballast amounts to 1150 lbs. Total ballast is still 1450 pounds.

So the and the have the same weight of ballast at 657kg.

Water ballast: 1150 lbs 521 kilograms

Permanent ballast: 300 lbs 136 kilograms

Boat weight, empty: 2550 lbs 1156 kilograms

For an gives a ballast ratio of 36%

A Noelex 30 has 31%, an RL28 40% and a catalina 22 32.5% so the is nothing special. A Sunbird 25 or Spacesailer 22 arguabley two of the most seaworthy trailer sailers have ratios of 34%

:macm:s are not good heavy weather boats by any stretch of the imagination and the ballast ratio does not change that.

[whgoffrn]

Honestly ballast isn't something that worries me ..... long ago when I was considering a hobie 33 I had a very experienced hobie owner and racer who also owned a larger heavy keelboat explaining in an analogy why a hobie was so sea worthy .....if you were faced with 12 foot waves a large keel boat crashes THROUGH the waves putting stress on the hull and rigging so while yes the hull and rigging is beefier it's weigh almost negates the added thickness of the hull and rigging as it crashes THROUGH the waves rather than flies over top of them .....so in theory a macgregor should benefit from being an ultralight also
Plus at this stage if I haven't learned to gauge wind speed vs how much sail I have out that isn't a design flaw that's me

The rudders and bracket are what concern me the most as if I go to cross the gulf and all looks good but as I get 20 miles out and near the halfway point if there are large following or quartering seas ....it will lift the boat up and as the waves goes under you roll the boat onto one or the other rudder putting a lot of pressure on the pop cycle sticks and brackets and I can see how wave after wave this could do and there is absolutely nothing I can do on my end to lessen the pressure put on the brackets or rudders ... I just have to wait and hope a set of waves don't come in at a weird angle to throw the boat down on one of them in just the wrong angle

I've sorta imagined in my head how the forces react on the boat with large following seas which is what from all my readings is where our boats struggle ...... I love everything about my boat and would hate to get rid of it for a much more expensive boat with less room all for stronger rudders

I looked at hobie 33s for a while and while very sea worthy the retractible keel version with keel up for anchoring in shallow waters leaves the keel through hull open which isn't good for sleeping with anything other than glass conditions also I wouldn't want to wake up to a nice big blue crab on my chest

Corsair f27 .... expensive there's a fairly nice one for 40k I'm looking at but it's 40 grand

OR figure out if I can figure out how to solve broken rudders or brackets delima..... machine shop custom larger brackets, glass in steel plate and also glass in as big of a backing plate as I can fit back there for the rudders to bolt to??? I could prob do that much much cheaper than selling mine and starting over with a new boat

[kadet]

The rudders and bracket are what concern me the most as if I go to cross the gulf and all looks good but as I get 20 miles out and near the halfway point if there are large following or quartering seas ....it will lift the boat up and as the waves goes under you roll the boat onto one or the other rudder putting a lot of pressure on the pop cycle sticks and brackets and I can see how wave after wave this could do and there is absolutely nothing I can do on my end to lessen the pressure put on the brackets or rudders

Actually you have the best designed boat for this situation. Pull the rudders out of the water and steer via sail trim and and just ride the wind. It is not as if you are trying to stay in a channel out on the open ocean Actually I think you put more force on these rudders beating to windward trying to prevent the beast rounding up

[whgoffrn]

Oh you may be right and if so I've got some pretty stout
Rudders and brackets already on it as I've had several 6 and 8 foot sets crashing into the bow beating into the wind as close as I could get it still doing 6 and 7kts by gps attempting to slow it down ....thats why I even had 3rd reef put in main on my last trip I aimed for a storm and bit off more than I could chew and was crashing into waves and i needed to slow it down more

I may have just found my winter project... I need to at least break a few rudders before I decide to switch boats based on the IDEA or WORRY that I might break one
I'm going to buy a spare rudder and bracket and add a sheet of metal to the halfway point on it and glass over it and see if I can have a machine shop add in extra metal to stiffen up the bracket
And here I go and I buy a drogue specifically for that purpose and yet to even test to see if it would work on our boat.... at worst I'll be left with a spare rudder and bracket ....sorry for this post sometimes I have to type out what my delima is to wrap my head around what I should do.... spare rudder and bracket even with fabrication is much cheaper than a corsair:-/

[sailboatmike]

:macm:s are not good heavy weather boats by any stretch of the imagination and the ballast ratio does not change that.

The X is like a machine when the weather whips up and i have less ballast than the later years, I only carry 550 liters (550kg or 1210lbs) of ballast my boat was one of the first off the line.

I used to have a Sunmaid 20, that has 330Kg of ballast and isnt anywhere near as pleasant in a swell.

For comparable boats the Noelex 25 carries 225kg of ballast https://www.nztya.nz/images/430530/noelex25_1.jpg

Sunbird 25 (JOG rated) 544kg http://www.sunmaid.org.au/specs25.htm

Austral Clubman 8 (26 feet) 380Kg http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7496

Macgregor 26M Water ballast 1150lbs plus 300lbs of permanent ballast = 659kg (1450lbs) Now given the empty weight of 2250lbs less permanent ballast (because the all up weight includes the 300lbs of permanent in hull) (300lb) gives a empty weight of 1950lbs.
1450 lbs of ballast divided by 1950lbs empty weight = .74 or a ballast ratio of 74%

Of course you could say but you need to add the ballast to the actual hull weight to get the percentage, but I would think that would be a inaccurate measure. That would mean the greater the ballast (adding weight) the lower the ratio and therefore the ballast ratio would become irrelevant.

For example if you have a 2 ton boat with 1 ton of ballast that would make the ratio 50% BUT in reality that would be 100% ballast ratio, so if you take that same boat and add another ton of ballast, that would make the boat 3 tons with ballast of 2 tons or a ballast ratio of only 66%, so lets add another ton of ballast and make it a 4 ton boat with 3 tons of ballast, that only makes the ballast ratio 75%.

[kadet]

Macgregor 26M Water ballast 1150lbs plus 300lbs of permanent ballast = 659kg (1450lbs) Now given the empty weight of 2250lbs less permanent ballast (because the all up weight includes the 300lbs of permanent in hull) (300lb) gives a empty weight of 1950lbs.
1450 lbs of ballast divided by 1950lbs empty weight = .74 or a ballast ratio of 74%

Arhh!! NO Ballast ratio is the percentage of the total displacement of the vessel, you have to include the ballast, motor etc.. in your calculation. And seaway comfort has a lot more to do with it than just ballast ratio. Stability can depend on where the ballast is carried,how the boat is loaded and can also be influenced by hull shape. It's just one measure amongst many of a boats characteristics. :macm:s are top heavy the water tank is higher than a weighted keel and the rounded hull rolls easily. The I believe has a flatter hull and is less prone to roll but the is definitely not a nice heavy weather boat.

[kurz]

Why you talk about kg of ballast?
You could make an with 1/3 of the actual water ballast weight. But put it in a keel bomb 1meter below the hull --> even with less ballast this new boat will stay safer in the water (as long as the daggerboard would not be retractable).

[Sumner]

...
1. the front stay ....ive gotten one of the larger size from bwy and I also tie a small yet strong 2klb rope to the top of the mast as a back up plan ...keep the original on the boat...i actually have replaced all the stays and keep the originals on boat as backups..

Good upgrades that will give you more peace of mind.

...
2. rudders And brackets...i have a 99x with the stainless steel brackets and I have a shark drogue I got from fiorentino as a back up to steer with drogue if necessary...

I question if you will be able to do much meaningful steering with the drogue. Keep us updated.

On the rudders, Mike and Sandy have been to the Bahamas I think 3 times now with their X and also to Alaska and back, Sea of Cortez and the Great Loop. Might check to see if they have done anything or not with the rudder/brackets.



I had my cheek plates fail coming back from the Bahamas that resulted in loss of steering when the rudder folded up. I was lucky and this happened on the way back 4-6 miles off Florida. 25, 50 or 100 miles earlier it would of been a real mess. I have tow insurance so finally gave up on trying to get the outboard down and got towed in.

I don't think this was a sudden catastrophic break and feel you won't have one either. I think it cracked and then over time the crack lengthened and finally broke. I had heard a strange clicking before but could never find out where it was coming from. In the future I will keep an eye on the bracket much more often.

Saying that I feel you will be fine, but keep a closer eye on those brackets and such so you don't get a sudden surprise. Not easy to find help over there but I'm sure if I would of found the problem earlier I could of done something to of helped it out.

...
3. I'm not sure I've seen this as a problem but I've had a 3rd higher reef put in my main and a roller furler so I can really cut down on size of canvas
...

I think the 3rd reef was a good move. When I ordered our main from Martin at Somerset Sails I went with just one higher reef about where a normal second reef is on the recommendation of another Mac sailor that knows more than I do about sails. 90% of the time it worked great but as I tried to sail only going over as much as possible and most of the way back there were high wind days when the main still had too much sail area and the boat was difficult to sail at times.

Martin said that if I ever wanted another higher reef he would add it at no charge. I sent the sail back after the Bahama trip and he put in the higher reef, about where a 3rd reef would normally go in. On our Flaming Gorge trip and our recent Lake Powell trip we could now sail in 20-30 knot winds with much better control.

Being able to sail reliably is a big safety factor when over there. With the easterly's it is hard to sail over there until you get by Nassau where you turn SE to the Exumas and don't have the wind on the bow any longer. If you did have engine problems with the prevailing easterly's sailing all the way back to Florida is not hard to do. I sailed 99% of the way from the Exumas to West End only using the outboard to go in a couple places. I did motor back across the Gulf Stream as there was a 1 day window to make the trip and the wind was not conductive to sailing. Worst case and I could of hung out at West End for a better wind day to return.

...

4 water in gas or crappy fuel.... I haven't yet but plan to get a water separator in fuel line and fuel tester
...

I...


http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... de-36.html

.... run a water separator/filter on the fuel line and use...


https://www.walmart.com/ip/HOPKINS-F3C- ... 3=&veh=sem

... one of these filters to pour fuel into the inboard tank. I think fuel over there is now much more reliable than it use to be. Not sure I would bother with a fuel tester. Put in the inline filter and use the other filter when you get fuel.

...
5. Lack of storage .... I don't plan to store water on boat as I found a reasonably priced water maker and i have lined my boat in cargo netting on insides to aid in more room
...

I wouldn't put all your water needs in the hands of a water maker. I'd at least take a number of collapsible water containers just in case you have a problem with the water maker. There is a lot of room in a Mac. We can pretty easily provision for a month or more for the two of us for all our water, food, fuel and sanitation storage needs. I don't have much more storage on the 37' Endeavour (a lot more living space of course ) In your case with 2 children I put them in the V-Berth and partition off one side of the aft-berth for yourself and the other side for storage.

Be cautious but don't spend too much time trying to figure out everything that could go wrong and stop you from going. Your big safety items are good navigational skills with backup (charts and two sources of chart plotters) and being very flexible on when you move, especially across the 'stream' and the longer passages in the Bahamas,

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[Ixneigh]

Uhhh...
Not this convo again.
These are not open water boats.full.stop.
They will never be. The design is not appropriate.
All the mods in the world won't make it so.
They can sneak across deep water like a kid sneaking down stairs to grab a cookie after mom and dad go to bed.
Any discussion of weak links should be confined to the context of spending several months in relatively shallow waters where shelter is usually only a day away. But where parts are impossible to get. (Or very expensive)
Drogues and hull wave bashing are fun to talk about. But the fact is, you are more likely to have issues with things like ground tackle. You better know how to anchor. You better have two good 20-25 lb anchors. You better know how to effect a Bahamian moor. You better be thinking the wind could do a 180 and blow blue blazes in the middle of the night when you snuggle up in the lee of an island somewhere. You better have a huge anchor like a fortress 25 packed away in case its too windy to move the boat and you need to reanchor it somehow. You better be able to anchor in a group of other boats and be able to have the boat settle back where you want her to.
You better have one anchor that will hold in areas where the sand is washed away from the current and its nothing but rock. Have you practiced anchoring without the engine? Retrieving it?
Now lets lets talk about fuel. Filters? Separator? Additives?
Good radio or sat based weather service?
(Help avoid the need for a drogue

The F27 didn't Have that much room in it but They are fast. They are also huge on a trailer.

Ix

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

Anyone who has ever been in in a storm at sea will know most of the above is not going to be of any help.
Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL

[Sumner]

Uhhh...
Not this convo again.
These are not open water boats.full.stop.
They will never be. The design is not appropriate.
All the mods in the world won't make it so.
They can sneak across deep water like a kid sneaking down stairs to grab a cookie after mom and dad go to bed.
Any discussion of weak links should be confined to the context of spending several months in relatively shallow waters where shelter is usually only a day away. But where parts are impossible to get. (Or very expensive)
Drogues and hull wave bashing are fun to talk about. But the fact is, you are more likely to have issues with things like ground tackle. You better know how to anchor. You better have two good 20-25 lb anchors. You better know how to effect a Bahamian moor. You better be thinking the wind could do a 180 and blow blue blazes in the middle of the night when you snuggle up in the lee of an island somewhere. You better have a huge anchor like a fortress 25 packed away in case its too windy to move the boat and you need to reanchor it somehow. You better be able to anchor in a group of other boats and be able to have the boat settle back where you want her to.
You better have one anchor that will hold in areas where the sand is washed away from the current and its nothing but rock. Have you practiced anchoring without the engine? Retrieving it?
Now lets lets talk about fuel. Filters? Separator? Additives?
Good radio or sat based weather service?
(Help avoid the need for a drogue

The F27 didn't Have that much room in it but They are fast. They are also huge on a trailer.

Ix

All great points !!!!!

Get a radio like was mentioned....



... where, even though he isn't alway 100% right, Chris still gives you a heads up that is important. More on it and him at the bottom of this page...

http://1fatgmc.com/boat/mac-1/2015%20Ba ... age-3.html

Don't count on the internet or anything else to give you weather there. They are great when available but that isn't always the case,

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[whgoffrn]

Ty for the input sumner... having already done this trip your info is very valuable having first hand experience ....and ty for the pics and links on the fuel filters as id seen them before but wasn't sure which posts to search for them under ...will be ordering those soon
On the water I have a 10 gal tank in the bow and I fill up 4x 2.5gal collapsible bags to give me 20 gal...i also have 3 more 5 gal collapsible if needed .... water maker I found is a 20 gal per hour that uses a pressure washer for a pump so uses my generator but yes you are right a generator, pressure washer or membrane malfunction can happen so I keep enough collapsible jugs to do without if needed and store 20 gal at all times

I do believe im going to attempt a low budget attempt at slightly strengthening up the rudders and brackets....the brackets are easy I'm going to see if I can get someone to tack weld a small 1/8th inch pipe just thick enough to be able to hold the "fingers" of the clamp style vice grips or a vice onto the lower corner .... pulling on the rudders by hand on land it's easy to see where the stainless brackets flex ...so with either a small vice or vice style vice grips and something welded on so it won't slip off will give some extra strength

The rudders requires extra work I'm going to order a spare rudder and attempt to put a sheet of metal inside the rudder to about the halfway point and glass over the whole thing keeping the same dimensions ... I'm going to leave the other part of the bracket alone and have it being the weak point so the hull doesn't crack ....from what I can tell those two are the weak links in the rudders that break often

We are going to islamorada once or twice this summer and I will test out the drogue .... our boat being light uses their lightest drogue so it only has a force of a few hundred pounds .... So with minor engineering and a bridle if 200lbs of force were pulling back on the port side and 100lbs were pulling back on the starboard it should turn to port..... in theory I can't see why it shouldn't work although I can see where I may have to figure out where is the best location to place the attachment points .... will report back next time I'm out..... I'll take it out on the lake and try in calm conditions first before I try it in the keys
Ty for all advice

[whgoffrn]

And lxneigh despite having only had my boat for a few years Florida summers and squalls was my training grounds and i had a steep learning curve .... ground tackle I have a 25lb and 35lb Mantus rode and chain AND a bridle to hook 3 attachment points boat trailer hook and 2 stainless cleats up front that in bad storms I hook the cleats to the mast base plate using ratchet straps....know how to bahamian moore 180 degrees and can say ive been anchored in some nasty winds just feet from islands we were playing on getting blown into the island and never drug an inch .... i should be a sponsor for mantus cause i believe theyve saved me many times when ive made mistakes and anchored 100 feet from a rocky cliff and then had a storm roll through pushing me towards it and never budged ....got anchoring covered

I have no desire to turn a macgregor into a blue water ocean crossing vessel and circumnavigate but I have day dreamed of the exumas since day one and read every story and YouTube video available .... go to YouTube and search "macgregor 26x exumas " and you will see a very cool looking several min long video but read the comments and you will see he lost his mast at stanial cay broke his center board took on water etc etc
Summer who I believe to be quite experienced and I can see by his mods on his boat has very good fabrication skills intelligent good at problem solving and quite intelligent and will even say had his rudder broke 100 miles out it may have been bad

I bought this boat with every intention of taking it to the exumas ...but not crossing oceans ... our boats are perfect for coastal cruising but if something like crossing the gulf or banks is pushing the limits of our boats which in my opinion it is....i can't say a trip to the exumas in a macgregor is a suicide mission but it's testing the limits of our little boats so it's either chose a different boat or problem solve and attempt to improve upon and slightly upgrade these weaker points that have known to fail when you do push it to that limit

Will a drogue work ...i have no idea .... If it doesn't I sell it on eBay and lose 100 bux or so in the exchange ..... but to the best of my knowledge and hours and years I've spent reading I have never seen 1 person try it.... people use drogues on power boats and sailboats i think I read where a cigg boat used one out at sea .... to dismiss it because no one has tried it isn't in my nature ....i think popular consensus agrees the rudder systems on the macgregors are a weak link without much of an answer ..... I see a lot of people (myself included) on here dreaming of trips to bimini and maybe farther ..... If a drogue DID work and I could steer in semi reasonably following seas I think that would be a game changer for our boats and give a lot of people the added confidence to make the trip and give their families memories that they could never forget..... I've already paid for the drogue it's just collecting dust so why not figure out if it actually will work or not instead of speculating...i don't know why I didn't try it last time I had it but didn't think to try but I definately will test it and the sea anchor both this year and report back

And the ATTEMPT at a rudder mod is so I wouldn't need the drogue but I do need to know if it actually will work or if it's just taking up much needed space

[kurz]

conerning water separating fuel filter:
I mounted one INSIDE the mercury OB:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzaJzr ... sp=sharing

Worked good since last year.

Maybe I try to put it higher (easier handling) and install some 90 degree fittings for the fuel line.