I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

[Tomfoolery]

. . . I checked the rudders on my dinghies, they are all made from tin plywood, HOWEVER they all have a thing Aluminium or Stainless steel plate on each side (around 1/32" or 1mm) to help reinforce that area, it normally runs from the top to almost the waterline.

Do they have a pattern of small fasteners down that length of outer reinforcement?

[whgoffrn]

I upgraded my rudders this last winter for fears of breaking rudders or brackets and I considered a ss plate but it would be a challenge to do it because to give it REAL stability it needs connected on 3 sides at least ...kinda like a box .... like the leading edge ...welded to both sides ....if u did this it would be unbreakable for the most part ...but the rudder is rounded so it has to be ground down to flat on the leading edge till the water line .... it's a lot of work that just (in my opinion) isnt necessary ....a lot of very seaworthy boats have mohaganny rudders or oak rudders .... there are some very tough hardwoods out there.... I do believe the rudders are a weak area of the boat that could use a mod or two .... I dont know if I've seen any other Mac's out there with wooden rudders besides mine but I definately can vouch for MUCH stronger than the OEM ones .... I originally thought about sanding mine down and putting ss plates on the side and leading edge but now that I see how much stronger just simple white oak is vs the hollow OEM ones I dont see myself making those plates now ....just dont forget you will need to do something with the thin weak brackets as well or it will bend and snap the bolt

[BOAT]

I agree that the rudders are the weak link but guess what - rudders are the weak link in almost ALL boats. Insurance actuary tables claim loss of steering as the number one cause of claims - that's ALL boats.

I think the MAC hybrids have a built in back up to the common problem of rudder failure - it's that huge iron thing hanging off the transom. It's double bolted to the boat, it's stronger than the boat, and it's never going to fail as a rudder.

The outboard can make a GREAT rudder for the MAC - it's right in a good spot for a back up rudder - right in the middle. All that is needed is a slight mod or "gadget" that we can attach to the outboard to make it a better rudder than it already is.

I would much rather spend my time developing a way to make the outboard a good rudder than trying to beef up the factory rudders to take abuse they just can't take.

I just might take this up seriously this summer - I may try sailing the boat with the rudders up and the motor down to see if it's possible - and then start experimenting with ways to secure a reasonably good working foil to the outboard that can be fitted in an emergency. I think it's a better backup plan than just making the rudders stronger and hoping that's enough.

[K9Kampers]

The outboard can make a GREAT rudder for the MAC - it's right in a good spot for a back up rudder - right in the middle. All that is needed is a slight mod or "gadget" that we can attach to the outboard to make it a better rudder than it already is.

The outboard by itself is USELESS as a sailing sailing rudder! BTDT. Once, I was motoring on my lake with rudders removed from the boat. The mast was up anyway and the wind was light, so I threw up the boom and sail to see what would happen. The outboard only as a rudder had very little influence on the boat - not enough for course correction nor any measure of control.

I did however, experiment with the sails for steering. It wasn't much, but reasonably better than the outboard for steering.

It'll be interesting to see what you come up with as an add on gadget.

[dlandersson]

This is spam?

I agree that the rudders are the weak link but guess what - rudders are the weak link in almost ALL boats. Insurance actuary tables claim loss of steering as the number one cause of claims - that's ALL boats.

I think the MAC hybrids have a built in back up to the common problem of rudder failure - it's that huge iron thing hanging off the transom. It's double bolted to the boat, it's stronger than the boat, and it's never going to fail as a rudder.

The outboard can make a GREAT rudder for the MAC - it's right in a good spot for a back up rudder - right in the middle. All that is needed is a slight mod or "gadget" that we can attach to the outboard to make it a better rudder than it already is.

I would much rather spend my time developing a way to make the outboard a good rudder than trying to beef up the factory rudders to take abuse they just can't take.

I just might take this up seriously this summer - I may try sailing the boat with the rudders up and the motor down to see if it's possible - and then start experimenting with ways to secure a reasonably good working foil to the outboard that can be fitted in an emergency. I think it's a better backup plan than just making the rudders stronger and hoping that's enough.

[kurz]

Thanks BOAT, will be curious what will be the result. Will also test drog sailing?

Maybe the outboard down will not be enough to steer without mod.
BUT: If you forget the OB down in the middle fixed position... Really bad to steer. Had this several times, got really mad becouse could not control the anymore.
Taking the OB out - all good.
So there is a steering the cannot be neglected. But not enough of course.

[whgoffrn]

I have a drogue by fiorentino (the shark) and have been meaning to test it out but I just have been so busy my boat has yet to see the water this year . I have a vacation to the keys lined up in 4 weeks so i really meant to have at least one shake down sail before I go but if not I'll at least know the answer in 4 to 5 weeks if a mac can be steered while under sail with a drogue.... I still haven't fully devised how I'm going to make a bridle for it either because being untested I dont know how much force it exerts on the cleats and if it's something I can hand pull or need to winch one side of the bridle in closer to steer if it if it even theoretically will work

[Newell]

I have to agree with the Cougar on this. I have the older X rudders with beefed up AL brackets, batteries and water tank forward with the lightest 50hp 2 smoker Nisson 50D, mast raked 3-4", shortened spreaders, 18 gal of gas at most, hanked jibs, cabin top traveler and I have rarely been beaten by another X. All said, when racing the X expect to finish at the back of the pack. There is no rudder problem on the older X models.

[sailboatmike]

This is a great pic that shows how far the M rudders go under the transom


By comparison here is the X rudder setup on the early ones


As you can see the rudder on the X actually sits well behind the transom for the majority of its length, this makes the X much less responsive to rudder input and makes the turning circle much greater, meaning your in the "No Sail" zone for longer during tacks, hence can / will stall more through tacks especially at low speed. I akin mine to turning the Queen Mary under sail, with some motor input I can spin her around on a dime, but I have a lot of horses helping spin her

[dlandersson]

My rule of thumb is to bre going at least 2 knots when going about.

And I have a lot of fun at the back of the pack.

[BOAT]

I think I can create something that will strap to the OB - it would be long - it would be something you would NOT leave on the motor because it would drag in the water when the OB was up and it would probably only be for speeds below 12 knots. I think something like that is doable. I even can think of an attachment to the outboard that is a swing up swing down thingy so that it could be always be attached to the OB and would not interfere with normal sailing or high speed motoring.

A swing up - swing down thingy would be a good gadget to have for folks that sail over 80 miles from shore - when I am out of the range of my gas tanks I do worry about things like rudder failure and so forth. I have a back up plan for just about everything EXCEPT those rudders. It's is something that worries me and I know that making them stronger is not really the answer in my case because in my situation it's not running aground that is going to ruin a rudder it's going to be a really bad day out at sea. A 10 foot following sea with breakers is totally doable in the M boat, but after three or four hours of that kind of pounding I fear the rudders will be so bent up or busted they will be useless. And it's the surfing down the face of the waves that also bothers me - we got caught in that stuff off Mexico in the Aquarius and reached speeds up to 13 knots surfing down the face of 14 foot swells. In the Aquarius I felt reasonably good because I had a tiller in my hand attached to a very strong rudder and i could feel the smashing and hammering in the tiller.

I have already used the motor as a drag in a following sea (we get that a LOT over here for folks trying to get back into the harbor on a big swell day). It does help a little bit as a drag anchor. And I am a HUGE believer in drogue chutes and buckets - they work GREAT and in the past I have seen them used very effectively to slow down the boat and manage following seas. The only reason I have not bought one yet is because i am still not confident in taking 'boat' into those conditions - I want a solution to rudder failure first before I put the boat in that situation.

If you advance to the end part of this video you can see the breakwater that is the opening to the Oceanside Harbor - sometimes we need to negotiate this to get back into the harbor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx_5rAvX5OA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wvDYy-yicQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz6EFWEOx5E

[kurz]

well if you talk about A swing up - swing down thingy so I just remeber our discussion about the course keeper.
So nobody knows how strong this thing in reality is...

[NiceAft]

I wonder what kind of rudders this guy had?

Ray

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2018/ju ... iling_0618

[BOAT]

I wonder what kind of rudders this guy had?

Ray

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2018/ju ... iling_0618

The question is not what kind but "how many?"

[Highlander]

Look,s like the 21ft has a single swing up rudder like the Macs watch the whole video they have 24 & 28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcopy_xnHsE

Looks like a masthead rig & backstay & cutter rigged for a code zero or spinnaker
this pic shows a swing up rudder 28ft
https://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barc ... 74568x.jpg

this pic shows a vertical lift rudder 22ft
http://northman.pl/wp-content/uploads/2 ... Maxus1.jpg

this pic shows a 22ft with twin vertical lift off set rudders
http://img.nauticexpo.com/images_ne/pho ... 052090.jpg

So looks like u have several choices
https://www.google.ca/search?q=maxus+22 ... 7mX9CWTtdM:

J