Finally took delivery last night of our 04 M

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:02 pm

Tom Root wrote:As Paul Harvey says....And now....the rest of the story. I'd be a happy camper if I were you. Now you get paid for fixing those mistakes, sounds like a good deal to me. The way I see it, you paid less than my X was brand new ( Boat sans options of course). Look at some of the already posted threads, and let the fun begin!

The way I see it, we Mac owners are in two camps (Generally) Those who have more time, and less money, so we do it ourselves. Or those who let others do the mods and repairs because they have more money than time.

Take a guess which camp I'm in?

Tom Root
2002 26
Great White
San Diego

I would rather pay more and have it done right...good sale price doesn't imply that cuts can be made in the prep of the boat.

Tom Root · Post by **Tom Root** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:16 pm

Whoa Paul,
The problem with this Internet, is you can sure put the wrong impression out there with a simple keystroke. I agree, I certainly by no means was attacking you! I am sure that these problems have given you grief! I was merely trying to be positive about your misfortune, believe me, I am the 1st one to shake my head with the lack of quality control and flat out junk we as consumers have to put up with.

I of course do not put a Macgregor product in that catagory. I do get frustrated at times with the things I have got to put on it, (Accesories) and lack of quality there, but not the fault of the boat. Things can go wrong, and we all experience that. This is one of the reasons I love this board, so we can work them out together. The issues you have are not insurmountable in my opinion.

Sorry, I just want you to remain a Mac owner, besides we need the feedback from both Motorsailors,(X&M) good bad and indifferent. I humbly appologize if I was too harsh? I was way too brutal 10 years ago as an Active duty Marine.....guess I am still a bit rough around the edges, an issue I am workin' on..... trust me!

Fair Winds and Following Seas to ya!

Tom Root
2002 26

Great White
San Diego

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:31 pm

We decided to keep the boat.

Washed it today...pretty dirty. Now all the swirl marks (one side bad) show up nice and sharp now. Thousands of tiny concentric circles.

One thing that bothered me (in addition)...was a couple cracks 7-8" long about midship on both sides..like the boat was pressed between something..just above the rubrail. It looks like it could have been caused by the boat being lowered (by crane of some sort I assume) onto the trailer.

Did find out that the Fortress FX-11 does fit into the anchor locker just fine. Still do not have the line or chain..but it does fit.

Spent about 3 hours wiping away factory wax residue. Still didn't get it all..kinda cool out today to do it the way it should be done

Maybe getting the blue hull was a mistake. We are selling a 14 year old blue boat that never had these problems.

Looking to see if they can get me a hollow mast so a channel can be run up it. You can see me holding my breath.

Oh well. Hope it works out.

Paul

Chip Hindes · Post by **Chip Hindes** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:06 am

I've been watching this thread with interest. Comparing a $30K Mac to a $30K car is not quite a fair comparison; based on the price of other 26 foot sailboats boats you should probably be comparing the Mac to a $10K car.

But anyway, I notice Paul's from Boston, which is particularly unfortunate since my experience with the original Havencraft (Art and Berniece Reiders, Boston dealer until a year ago) was so different.

I picked up my '01X in September of '00. Perhaps, I'm not as critical, but I would say although not spotless, I was pleasently surprised by its condition. All the optional equipment installation was performed in professional fashion by Havencraft. Art offered to go through the rigging process with me on his lot, but I was in a hurry to get started home (160 miles) and passed. It turned out the only "problem" as far as installation was figuring out the roller furler, coiled on the rear berth but ready to install. A careful reading of the manual and I was set.

Later, when some issues arose, flaws in the gelcoat, a leaking freshwater container (what garbage those things are) a binding motor linkage, Art told me to bring the boat in and he'd fix them while I waited, since I was traveling 160 miles. It's a full day trip so I elected not to make it; instead he sent me the stuff I needed next day delivery.

Another Havencraft owner told me he had also passed on the rigging class and had never tried to rig his boat until he took it to the marina to launch it. Obviously, it wasn't quite ready; when he discoverd he didn't quite know what to do he called Art; Art drove to the marina and spent several hours helping him rig it.

Truthfully, I don't really know whether the excellent condition of my boat was due to better boats coming out of the factory or because of the dealer, but based on comments and complaints on this board over the years since, I'm thinking it was primarily the latter. Just a note, at that time there was a 4-6 month wait from deposit to delivery, and Art told me he could sell every boat the factory was willing to send him. Perhaps the dealer experience was part of the reason for Havencraft's success.

Roger, are you listening?

Ralf · Post by **Ralf** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:10 am

Paul:

I am one of those many lurking around the forum while contemplating a purchase. If there weren't al those gaping discrepancies between the McGregor advertisement (website) (i.e. mast with inserted tube for wire routing...) and what people actually receive, we might have ordered already - well, it's that and my last (and so far only) boat ownership experience: Let me just briefly tell you and it will explain my hesitation ordering the Mac as well as why I say lean on your dealer as well as Mac Gregor a bit:

Read about multihulls for a few years. Never really sailed except for a few times crewing and a week liveaboard on a 42' catamaran (great!). Completely got tied up in liking these Farrier (ie. Corsair) trimarans. Of course the budget disagreed... So, I found this perfect little 21' daysailer (open) trimaran that's made in France and sounded like a rocket ship for the family to me (no comfort, just fun daysailing, maybe camping cruising with tent). Read up on it what I could and ordered one sight unseen (first one to US). It arrived with some minor cracks and issues. Sailed great. The minor cracks and issues became bigger and I discovered a few in areas that were definite no-nos for cracks i.m.h.o. The manufacturer agreeed to either refund my money and pick up the boat or to send a replacement boat and pick up the old one. Because I liked how she sailed (even so she was on the water only 5 times - then no more because of the "scary crack"), I went for the replacement. That arrived next spring (should have heard the neighbors wondering about the two boats). It arrived with lots of improvements over the previous years model. It also arrived with even more cracks, lots of spider cracking and a hole in the hull. No kidding! It was gored by a forklift - either by the shipping people or by customs or wherever! That was enough. Tons of e-mailed pictures and text later the manufacturer agreed to arrange for somebody to pick up both boats & trailers and refund my money. They even were kind enough to purchase my outboard. Of course, trying to establish a foothold in this market, they had lots of incentive to be nice - they were nice, did good by me, even if it all was just for a $10K or so boat. What I am trying to say is, that it doesn't hurt to lean on your dealer AND the manufacturer (it just takes time and letters and pictures and did I mention lots of time...). It's in their interest to fullfil their obligations well. I guess there is more eople like me out there who have neither the time, nor the money to buy a product that possibly may not be supported as it should be and seemingly never arrives in the condition it's supposed to. I for one am very curious to learn how this ends as I have to contemplate this decision to which boat we shall entrust our family weekends / vacations for many years to come.

Good luck - and you're right, a discount does not mean that you have to put up with anything less than promised in an as new condition - anything less should be fixed at dealers or manufacturers cost. Please keep us updated how this evolves.

Ralf

Mark Prouty · Post by **Mark Prouty** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:43 am

Paul S wrote:We decided to keep the boat.
Washed it today...pretty dirty. Now all the swirl marks (one side bad) show up nice and sharp now. Thousands of tiny concentric circles.

One thing that bothered me (in addition)...was a couple cracks 7-8" long about midship on both sides..like the boat was pressed between something..just above the rubrail. It looks like it could have been caused by the boat being lowered (by crane of some sort I assume) onto the trailer.

This would concern me expecially after reading what Ralf wrote. Could you take pictures and email them to me? I would post them on my web site and link to them directly for this discussion board for all to see.

dclark · Post by **dclark** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:44 am

Reading through this thread, most of the complaints are with the dealer and not MacGregor. MacGregor has a factory that makes exactly one thing. They all come out basically the same. Most of the things complained about are dealer add ons. MacGregor has nothing to do with your RF or it's hardware for example. That's all the dealer. When it comes down to it all MacGregor makes is the hull. Then they add a bunch of stuff that other people make. The rest is the dealer.

greybird-M · Post by **greybird-M** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:04 am

Well, I'll add my two cents again. My previous post in this thread was not to knock Macgregor, but to point out (as others have) the importance of dealer support. If you have this support, problems can be tended to and you have a source for advice, etc. My dealer(s) are jerks-I had this confirmed by another dealer close to me, who also deals Catalinas, as does the jerk dealer (so this substandard dealer neglects his Catalina customers as well as his Mac customers). I have TOTALLY written off the jerk dealer, and use this wonderful board more and more for advice. I know this 'abandoned' feeling well and it is unpleasant. But this weekend I took my 26M out for a 50 mile round trip down and up the Indian River from Cocoa to Melbourne, ballast empty, no sails up and we had a blast-down and back in about 4.5 hours. I am glad I bought my Mac, and so far have not had to try and get the 'dealer' to do anything for us. Hang in there and good luck!

Tom Root · Post by **Tom Root** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:22 am

Paul, A bit off topic, but I went to your yahoo profile, and your link to you MGB website....kudo's on it. I must confess I am sorta challenged in putting one together. I can see you doing one on your Mac, and am sure it will be good site to visit. I really did like the content you put out on your MGB! I hope all gets better in your situation with your new boat, and I agree you should not have had so many things wrong on a delivery of a new boat!

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:12 am

Chip Hindes wrote:I've been watching this thread with interest. Comparing a $30K Mac to a $30K car is not quite a fair comparison; based on the price of other 26 foot sailboats boats you should probably be comparing the Mac to a $10K car.

Doesn't change my POV. I would expect the same level of quality on a $10K Kia as a $30K Mercedes. Our $13,000 92 Honda was delivered with as high a level of quality, fit and finish, etc than out $45,000 '01 Audi.

If I purchased a $10K car...I would hold it to the same level.

If you saw the gelcoat finish, you would be blown away too. Too bad the swirl marks, scratches, etc doesn't show up well in pictures.

It is Macgregors first attempt at a blue hull (that I know of) in a while and they have to learn from this. Teach their employees how to properly use a buffer to not scratch the finish.

Paul

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:15 am

Mark Prouty wrote:
Paul S wrote:We decided to keep the boat.
Washed it today...pretty dirty. Now all the swirl marks (one side bad) show up nice and sharp now. Thousands of tiny concentric circles.

One thing that bothered me (in addition)...was a couple cracks 7-8" long about midship on both sides..like the boat was pressed between something..just above the rubrail. It looks like it could have been caused by the boat being lowered (by crane of some sort I assume) onto the trailer.
This would concern me expecially after reading what Ralf wrote. Could you take pictures and email them to me? I would post them on my web site and link to them directly for this discussion board for all to see.

I will. Not sure how they will look, But I will try.

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:23 am

dclark wrote:Reading through this thread, most of the complaints are with the dealer and not MacGregor. MacGregor has a factory that makes exactly one thing. They all come out basically the same. Most of the things complained about are dealer add ons. MacGregor has nothing to do with your RF or it's hardware for example. That's all the dealer. When it comes down to it all MacGregor makes is the hull. Then they add a bunch of stuff that other people make. The rest is the dealer.

I would say it is 50/50 maybe. The gelcoat swirls, sh!tty repair, wax residue was factory done.

Then again..the dealer should have taken some time to buff out the scratches and swirl marks (if possible at all).

I used to think the boat was built by drunk monkeys..but I think they overdosed on caffine ..at least the ones using the buffers.

I used to think that our old Sunbird boat bottom of the barrel quality. But Macgregor proves that if you lift up the barrel.....

It is going to work out. I think it is generally a good solid boat.

I think offering the blue was a mistake that they might regret later on.

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:30 am

Tom Root wrote:Paul, A bit off topic, but I went to your yahoo profile, and your link to you MGB website....kudo's on it. I must confess I am sorta challenged in putting one together. I can see you doing one on your Mac, and am sure it will be good site to visit. I really did like the content you put out on your MGB! I hope all gets better in your situation with your new boat, and I agree you should not have had so many things wrong on a delivery of a new boat!

Thanks. If you look at what I have done to my MGB , especially the work that was just completed rear suspension pics, you can appreciate the level of detail that I expect.

I think a lot of people that get less than what they expect just accept it. I don't think that is good. That just allows it to continue to happen.

I was considering just getting rid of the mac and gettin a hunter (or other brand) but do not think that it would be sigifincally better (quality control)

Paul

Chip Hindes · Post by **Chip Hindes** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:34 pm

Doesn't change my POV. I would expect the same level of quality on a $10K Kia as a $30 Mercedes. Our $13,000 92 Honda was delivered with as high a level of quality, fit and finish, etc than out $45,000 '01 Audi.

I'm sorry, but I had to smile at the idea of the $30 Mercedes; I'm assuming it wasn't a Freudian slip, and hope that despite your anger at your shabby treatment you can see some humor in my pointing it out. I see lots of additional humorous possibilities in the $13K Honda vs the $45K Audi, and nearly infinite additional humorous possibilities concerning anyone who actually owns an MGB, but I'll refrain.

There's no doubt you have quite a long list of legitimate gripes. I wish you well in getting them resolved as quickly as possible.

Just curious, is there a reason you haven't mentioned the dealer's name? You rightly point out that accepting shabby workmanship is part of the reason such things continue; you could say the same about not assigning the responsibility for such screwups exactly where it belongs. Going back to the comparison with automobiles, I believe you might be surpirsed at the condition in which many new vehicles arrive at the dealer, and how much the dealer is expected to contribute toward resolving any problems before delivery.

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:11 pm

Chip Hindes wrote:
Doesn't change my POV. I would expect the same level of quality on a $10K Kia as a $30 Mercedes. Our $13,000 92 Honda was delivered with as high a level of quality, fit and finish, etc than out $45,000 '01 Audi.
I'm sorry, but I had to smile at the idea of the $30 Mercedes; I'm assuming it wasn't a Freudian slip, and hope that despite your anger at your shabby treatment you can see some humor in my pointing it out. I see lots of additional humorous possibilities in the $13K Honda vs the $45K Audi, and nearly infinite additional humorous possibilities concerning anyone who actually owns an MGB, but I'll refrain.

There's no doubt you have quite a long list of legitimate gripes. I wish you well in getting them resolved as quickly as possible.

Just curious, is there a reason you haven't mentioned the dealer's name? You rightly point out that accepting shabby workmanship is part of the reason such things continue; you could say the same about not assigning the responsibility for such screwups exactly where it belongs. Going back to the comparison with automobiles, I believe you might be surpirsed at the condition in which many new vehicles arrive at the dealer, and how much the dealer is expected to contribute toward resolving any problems before delivery.

>> believe you might be surpirsed at the condition in which many new vehicles arrive at the dealer, <<

That is my point..if they come in damaged..at least they (generally) take a lot of time to fix the problem before the final consumer sees it.

>>Just curious, is there a reason you haven't mentioned the dealer's name? <<

I figured it wasn't important. I have learned this level of quality is common across the macgregor board from what I have heard here.

Maybe I am overreacting..but this is my first sailboat. I don't know what to expect. I just know the few dealer options we got on our old boat were installed before we picked it up. I didn't know that Macs were 'some-assembly-required'. Now I know.

Paul

MacGregorSailors.com

MacGregorSailors.com

Finally took delivery last night of our 04 M

Paul: Lean on your dealer and Mac Gergor a bit!

dealer