Engine Size (fuel economy)

[kevperro]

Overpowering a MacGregor ?
The Accident waiting to happen!

Insurance won't pay!

Hp rating on boat

Overpowered Insurance Questions

Overpowered Outboard Insurance Questions

Outboard Motor Repair- Way overpowered??!!

Oversize outboard contributed to accident

overpowered boat, What about liability or insurance coverage for modified engines?

Interesting...
This exercise was actually for a friend of mine who was looking at an overpowered 20' Outrage. Though I must admit that I had been thinking about putting the Johnzuki 140 4S on my 17 (it actually weighs LESS than the 90-115 - go figure).


Thoughts?
-WS

I think it is understandable why an insurance company wouldn't honor a policy or write it for that manner when you are using a device outside of it's design intent.

With that in mind if you had to stick with the 50HP motors, which would you choose?

I think the ETEC 50 still has the best balance of weight, fuel economy, and the ability to use the large 14" prop. Only the Big Foot or Yamaha swing the big prop and both give up weight to the Etec. They may be more quite at cruise than the ETEC though....

[Robert]

Chinook,
When you repower to a 4 stroke, will you be trying for keeping the 6mph cruise for long power sailing trips or will you repower looking for more speed?
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I'm considering repowering with a 4 stroke, and will be looking for the best combination of fuel efficiency, quiet operation, and reliability.

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If you are going to repower with for same speed at similar hp, how much better fuel economy will you expect going from a fuel injected 2 stroke to a fuel injected 4 stroke?
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I have always heard Nissan/Tohatsu are extremely reliable, what feature of the 4 stroke will give better reliability?
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In my opinion, for getting a great reduction in noise, but not wanting to go fast, and needing the best fuel economy when power sailing, stepping up to the next larger propeller and hp range will do the trick for you, the Suzuki 70 or Mercury Bigfoot 60 might be just the thing. You will barely hear the Suzuki at power sailing speeds, but the larger prop and more hp will make a lot of diffrence fighting rough seas with a heavily loaded boat. The Suzuki 70hp trumps the Mercury EFI for the "tried and true" award since the Suzuki 70hp has been fuel injected for many years while the fuel injection on the Mercury is just a couple years old.
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The Etec90 would be nice too, part throttle fuel economy is supposed to be excellent, but probably not as quiet as a 4 stroke. The Etec90 being so new will be harder to repair if parts are needed in a far away place, but with fewer moving parts than a 4 stroke it should be more reliable since simpler mechanicals usually is more reliable.

[They Theirs]

Chip & Frank

I purchased my Marine Insurance from Progressive and have our other toys insured with them. The First information our insurance Broker wanted to know was the Boat and Serial # followed by the Engine Manufacturer, size, H.P. and Serial #. What you say may be true, but I could tell they were very insistent on specific information and told us they would get back to us. We were not new customers to progressive and it went pretty much as the Quote from WS in the above post.

I can remember a thread from several Mac Boaters and those in the process of buying a Mac, posting on their visit and tour through the Costa Mesa Factory. I also recall their direct questioning of the MacGregor Factory opinion on engines above their recommended 5-50 h.p. It was definitely negative toward larger engines.

I like Tim Allen but dont follow his obsession. I like the Mac for its ability to perform as a Hybrid. We can all fantasize about upgrading and enhancing the Mac. My view is upgrading the sails and rigging of the Mac will enhance its ability to sail and involve a fare amount of skill and ability to use the upgraded sails and controls in reaping the benefits of a boat performing at its best. This will not impact the Macs ability to motor, but hanging a large heavy engine on the transom will impair the boats already marginal sailing performance on the wind. If you want to find out how much, have one of your Crew Sit on the engine when sailing, as that is where youll be adding all that extra ballast. The next thing youll hear will be; why are we pointing poorly, or why is the boats motion changed? Then have that crew sit forward to remove the weight out of the extremities and to better offset the heel of the boat, and stiffen the boat in sailing closer to the wind. Of coarse there are those who claim they dont care and criticize those who enjoy using their sailing skills to get the most out of their Hybrid Sailboat. The Old Favorite of; if you wanted to Sail better, you should have bought a boat for pure sail, or the Mac was never made to be a good sailboat!

Somehow bolting on a bigger engine to the stern to go fast does nothing to impress me as much as the great story by Chinook and the Cruisers Perspective". While they maintained a great auxiliary engine their heavily loaded Mac was able to overcome a marginal fuel supply in their long destination by combining their sailing skills and the Macs ability to power sail.
A real example of cruising in a Mac.

[Chinook]

I haven't seriously begun researching engine options yet. I've heard from various sources that the 4 stroke will give better mileage, but don't know how to quantify it in comparison with similar hp ETEC. There are a lot of 4 stroke 50's on Macs around Puget Sound, and the owners I've talked to there, and elsewhere have seemed pleased. The noise difference is real.

I'm also attracted by not having to buy mix oil along the way. On our Inside Passage cruise last summer we used 8 gallons. We started out with 4 gallons on board, and replenished along the way, but in some places, even in larger SE AK cities, had a hard time locating synthetic or synthetic blend oil, which is recommended for the engine, and which I've tried to exclusively use. With all the other stuff we bring on a distance cruise, stowage space for that many gallons of oil is hard to come by. Future trips like a cruise to the Exumas, the Mackenzie River, or a return to SE AK would seem to benefit by not having to lug all that mix oil.

I'm wondering about a problem we've had with our Nissan 50 ETEC. Early on it gave us fits, running rough and trying to cut out at low rpm's, which is usually the case arriving at a dock. The plugs were getting fouled easily. In talking with our dealer, he felt we may be running the wrong prop, and we switched to a less aggressive pitch. That has helped some, but it still occasional reverts to being cranky.

Regarding having extra power to push through rough seas, it's been my experience that extra power can be more of a liability than assett when the swells get big. On rough water, if we're pushing too hard, the prop will periodicly lift out of the water and race. Only solution is to throttle back.

I don't know which option is best. I want an efficient, reliable power source that will give me my 6 knots most of the time, but still be able to move up to double digits occasionally, the situation suits. I plan on having fun with the search.

Happy sailing, Mike Cecka

[Catigale]

I don't know which option is best. I want an efficient, reliable power source that will give me my 6 knots most of the time, but still be able to move up to double digits occasionally, the situation suits. I plan on having fun with the search.

MIke - if thats the criteria the 50 will suit you fine - you wont get to 20 mph once you have loaded the boat for cruising but 15 mph will be attainable - in rough seas, correct, you are better off throttling back.

Ive got a 2002 Mercury BF 50 4 stroke EFI with the 14x10 BF prop which I am happy with. I dont honestly think oil injection on the modern 2 strokes is an issue though - I bet most dont even use a tank of oil a season.

[Jeff Ritsema]

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I dont honestly think oil injection on the modern 2 strokes is an issue though - I bet most dont even use a tank of oil a season.

Steve, I have a 75HP Etek and it seemed like I was having to fill the reservoir of injection oil a LOT. Is an issue for long transits.

[Catigale]

I Stand corrected - a frequent occurence - thanks Jeff.

[Robert]

Chinook, if you get a cupped prop or four blade prop, and turn that prop at a lower speed using a large gear ratio and mount the motor all the way down on the transom you can minimize the chance of the prop losing traction. My Suzuki dealer told me when he saw my four blade prop, that he usually recomends four blade props for boats that lose grip on turns at speed, I think that would apply to boats in swells also.
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Suzuki DF50 on a Mac26X loaded for four people over a weekend will go 12 to 13 mph up the swells and 17 to 23mph down the swells, swells were 10 feet or more tall and we were crossing them at 45 degree angle at wide open throttle. Four blade aluminum 4x11.8x9 prop did not lose tracion on one such trip and three blade stainless lightly cupped 3x12.5x9 prop did not lose traction on another trip. In bad stormy weather 5 foot unorganized chop, the top speed was 10 to 12 mph at wide open throttle trying to get to the dock before the storm got worse and before dark. It was much more comfortable sailing in that same storm than powering (rain tastes a lot better than buckets of salt spray), but we decided to outrun the storm. The Suzuki DF50 was absolutely reliable for me, only had stalls when one tank of gasoline would run empty, of if I forgot to open the tank vent. I used http://www.RedLineOil.com 10W40 in the engine and Heavy Shockproof in the lower unit both starting after the initial 20 hour check. Never consumed a drop of oil, the 200hr lifter check showed that they were broken in but otherwise looked new, never needed a manual valve adjustment. Oil bathed timing chain, direct coil over plug ignition, DOHC 4 valves per cylinder, very quiet. Only I wanted more power to go 20mph without needing to be at full throttle to go farther on weekend trips.

[Catigale]

In my experience the size of the waves/swells are part of the story.. Ive had Catigale on 10 foot swells with a lot of wind and really had a good time...following week I was in confused 3 foot chop at the West end of the Cape Cod Canal and almost cancelled the trip ...family was really miserable. There was no way I was motoring at 12 knots in that stuff.

Thanks for the prop tips Robert - I killed my prop last outing hitting rocks so I am putting on my replacement this season. Will be looking for a spare too of course.

[Captain Steve]

Mike, on your long cruise to Alaska, did you notice what the level of outboard repair was available. I have a nissan 50 2 stroke. One of the things I think is an asset is the easier repair availability. Any of the new fuel injected models requires specialized computer based repair and diagnostic equipment. With carbs, the skill of the repair person is all thats required.

[Robert]

I would like some thoughts pertaining to Chinook's 2mpg experience and mine when the required minimum RPM range cannot be reached. I did not worry about mpg in that storm, and had full tanks because we had been sailing so did not measure mpg. In the swells at wide open throttle and not making it into the RPM range on the way up, my Suzuki DF50 made 3.6mpg (same for both props) using speed over ground GPS.
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Is there an advantage of either the 4stroke or 2stoke type air valving when the motor is lugging (working as hard as it can but not reaching the required RPM range)?
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I think the 4stroke with tight shut valves might have an advantage when lugging. Do the holes in the cylinder against the piston "valves" of the 2stroke shut off as tightly as a 4stroke?
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Would the 4stroke or 2stroke be better able to pull in all the air it needs when lugging?

[Chinook]

I Stand corrected - a frequent occurence - thanks Jeff.

Hi Steve,

For information sake, I average about 300 miles on a gallon. It only becomes an issue on extended trips into areas where synthetic or synthetic blend oil isn't readily available.

Mike

[Chinook]

It's been a very reliable engine; however, when tooling along at 6-8 knots, people in the cabin complain about the exhaust fumes, and the wind direction doesn't seem to matter much.

I've noticed exhaust smell occasionally, but not that often. We keep the plastic panel that mounts in a pair of tracks under the steering seat in place, and I think that helps keep fumes away from cockpit and cabin. When running with the bimini up during threatening weather, we sometimes put up the stern panel of the surround, which further protects against exhaust drift and really cuts down on motor noise.

Mike Cecka

[Chinook]

Chinook, if you get a cupped prop or four blade prop, and turn that prop at a lower speed using a large gear ratio and mount the motor all the way down on the transom you can minimize the chance of the prop losing traction.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll be talking with my dealer about these ideas.

Mike