18 mph under sail. Can it be done?

[delevi]

You may be right beene, but more likely I did plane. The burst of speed wasn't so much related to waves as it was to gusts. Jeff at Arena Yachts tells me that an does plane under sail and he's done it, and not just on a downwind course. I believe he is a credible guy and a very experienced sailor, but he does tend to tout the Mac amost as much as Roger

[Scott]

Ive been on plenty of sailboats that were planers and been on them hile they were planing. Just not on a Mac.

Ive owned my X for around 9 years now and sail nearly every weekend thats above butnippin' and the highest speed Ive got not DDW was around 11 to 11.9 knots.

Im pretty sure it wasnt planing.

Im a big fan of the MAc and love my boat but I dont know that it can plane under sail.

Bueller?........Bueller...............Bueller??

[delevi]

Scott, that's nearly 14 mph. Very Nice! Are you sure you weren't planing? Ok, i'm sure you're sure, but you did exceed hull speed, so I guess the effect was the same. Maybe the bow rose just enough to break through the hull speed limitations, but not a high enough rise to notice from the helm station...

[Frank C]

I wrote this story so many years back that it was purged during Heath's upgrade to the new PHPbb. However, Mark Prouty had captured it in his archives, and published it in a thread as "Legend #3".

Some quick background. I bought my 2000 26X in late summer 1999 from Gene Arena, who was the Alameda Mac dealer since Roger began building. Gene's son (Dan Arena) still operates the Mac dealership in nearby San Rafael. The point is that Gene was around long enough to watch Roger's trailerable designs evolve from infancy.

Legend #3 A MacGregor sailboat has actually gone 17 mph (under sail).

A dealer told the story of selling an early X-boat (1995) to a group of crazy Hobie sailors. Apparently they loved to chase the West Coast winds, and decided to buy the X as a mother ship and bedroom for a trip to Sea of Cortez.

They insisted on testing the boat out on central SF Bay without ballast, but he refused. He did let them try it unballasted in a more sheltered area of the Bay ... he said they were very skilled at handling the boat, but clearly young crazies! So they bought the boat and took off for SoC with a Mac and two Hobies. They later sent him a letter from Mexico claiming a 17 mph "reach" unballasted. It required one helmsman/trimmer, plus two guys holding halyards and standing out on the windward hull.

And by way of clarifying ... Eric Lowe was skipper, trainer and new-boat technician for Gene's dealership in Alameda. Eric is the guy who took me on the shakedown cruise. Eric's also the guy who actually accompanied the Hobie crazies in their testing cruises on SF Bay. This account was related to me by Eric, who is a member on this website and a very occasional visitor.

The Arena dealership never witnessed the famed broad reach, they just received that account in the mail. However, Eric said he absolutely believed in its truth, after having sailed with the die-hard Hobie team. If you've ever read Capt Jim's Adventures (Mac Dealer A-1 Sailboats in Mayo, MD) you'll probably believe it too.

[Frank C]

Another Legend - 24 mph
Gene Arena and his brother were pioneering hydroplane racers in the 1950s, with Gene being the outboard 'wrench.' As such, once Roger released the 19 and 26X, Gene was always particularly interested in how to mount and prop for the bigger outboards ... the Honda 50 was large back then, the Merc Bigfoot was considered massive.

Gene 'engineered' (and Eric mounted) the first Bigfoot 50 on a 26X, probably in about 1997. Since this pre-dated consumer GPS units, they had to run a two-way measured mile in the Alameda Estuary to test motors and props. After some days of trying different props, Gene found his best choice of cupped 14" prop. With Eric driving, alone in a new Bigfoot 26X, empty and mastless, they clocked a two-way average of 24 mph.

I was told that these two events above formed the basis for Roger's original 26X marketing puffery. Of course, they never considered it 'puffery' in the least! I still have the "outboard test report" that Gene issued in every new boat 'owner's package.' Sure enough, it shows 24 mph for the Bigfoot with 14-inch prop.

Gene is also the guy who appealed to Roger to extend hull warranty for my "oversized" DF-60 Suzuki outboard (denied), and Gene 'engineered' specially reinforced mountings for my Suzuki. It was Gene's strong recommendation of a 14" prop, plus my desire for EFI (only on larger Suzuki), that convinced Gene to approach Roger on the hull warranty. I finally decided that EFI and the 14" prop were more important than the warranty. I've never had any reason to doubt that choice.

[eric3a]

..

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

The one time I was out in 45kt winds, main was down and tied, Genny unfurled about 1/4 with the furler line clutched, beam reach, boat was healed about 30deg just due to freeboard alone, without warning the genny unfurled pulling the furler line through the clutch like it wasn't even closed.

Did the clutch un-dog, or do you know what/why it happened?

[beene]

Did the clutch un-dog, or do you know what/why it happened?

Hi Bill
The Furler line as you recall is quite a bit smaller diameter than the halyards. I figure the clutches were meant more for the larger stuff than the smaller line. I checked it again later and I was able to pull the line through the clutch with it closed. Not so with the halyards, they're not coming out.

So when the wind caught the genny, it was strong enough to pull the furler line through the clutch.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Several 26X owners, after extreme storm conditions, have reported that the forestay tang has sliced right through the foredeck "aft-wise" by some few inches. Apparently the rig can stand in 60 knots, but the foredeck has suffered from that knife-edged tang. While installing my bow roller I had them install a full-width backing plate, of quarter-inch aluminum. A trapezoid shape, it bridges the underdeck from side to side, cleat to cleat, just aft of the foretang.

Frank, I have my doubts about this statement. Case in point, I was demasted and had a marine surveyor check out my foretang. After reading the reports on this board, I thought for sure this must have happened since you can't get any more force on a mast than one that snaps it in half. He gave the foretang a clean bill of health and said there was no stress on it (including the chain plates too) and no ripping through fiberglass. No damage to the forestay either so I reused it.

So, I guess my point is that if you can rip the mast down and not do that kind of damage, then what kind of conditions would be stronger when out sailing? Doesn't make sense anymore.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Ive been on plenty of sailboats that were planers and been on them hile they were planing. Just not on a Mac.

Ive owned my X for around 9 years now and sail nearly every weekend thats above butnippin' and the highest speed Ive got not DDW was around 11 to 11.9 knots.

Im pretty sure it wasnt planing.

Im a big fan of the MAc and love my boat but I dont know that it can plane under sail.

Bueller?........Bueller...............Bueller??

Scott, did you look back at your wake when you were doing this speed? I beg to disagree here, if you were really doing that speed (without surfing), then you were planing. I'm pretty sure that the X boat hits a planing speed at about 10 knots.

The old timers (as in amount of time spent on this board) will certainly remember the big planing discussion we had a couple years ago.

I've spent a fair time out on racing boats with hardcore racing types and their general opinion is that anything above hull speed is planing. And sure enough, I've been out on a friend's wavelenth 24 racing boat with a symmetrical spinnaker up in 20mph winds where the boat speed exceeded 9 knots. But I don't think this is a true planing hull so it just goes to show you that you can definitely exceed hull speed given enough power (remember the F4 - affectionately known as the flying brick?).

After discussing this ad nauseum, I think we came to the conclusion that there is a transition speed on a boat where it goes from hull speed (displacement mode) to planing speed. IIRC, this transition is called semi displacement speed and I'm pretty sure on an X boat, this is from 7.5 to 10.5 mph. Above this transition speed, you are planing.

At true planing, where the water meets the hull first, there is a spray that comes out, not a bow wave (which is now behind the boat). This is why you should look back to your wake to see if you have now outrun your bow wave.

Theoretically, if you reach 10 knots, your additional acceleration should now take less power than when you were sub planing...so I actually believe in the 17mph theory. Its just not very feasible for me to prove this on my X since I have a completely decked out cruising boat and I always singlehand. Maybe Eric will take the challenge seriously when he gets his boat and attaches a trapeze. Remember Eric, you will need pictures or no one here will believe you. Pictures of the wake, pictures of your GPS speed (using big number mode) in the foreground with the conditions in the background, etc.

[eric3a]

..

[Frank C]

Several 26X owners, after extreme storm conditions, have reported that the forestay tang has sliced right through the foredeck "aft-wise" by some few inches. ... install a full-width backing plate ... just aft of the foretang.

Frank, I have my doubts about this statement. Case in point, I was demasted and had a marine surveyor check out my foretang. ... no stress on it (including the chain plates too) and no ripping through fiberglass. No damage to the forestay either so I reused it...

Dimitri,
I understand your skepticism ... had I seen only one report I'd be skeptic too. But I know that 3 different persons have reported this problem on this website. Unfortunately, those early archives were lost with the new forum software, but I doubt all 3 were trying to yank our sheets.

The only physical justification I'd offer ... your mast was snapped clean, probably by shock loads & point loads. Curiously, that means that your rig suddenly became much lighter, and less punishing on the foredeck.

If the mast remains up throughout a long storm, the entire rig might 'work' that foretang aftwards. Two of the 3 reports related storm conditions, 60+ winds, no sails, and neither reported being demasted ... seemingly long-term damage. The other report gave fewer details, just wrote, "happened on my boat too."

After all, the foredeck is simply a sandwich of very thin layups with balsa in the middle. Maybe Roger added extra layup in later years, or maybe the foam sandwich is stronger ... but based upon those writings I definitely believe the sliced foredeck seemed possible, even if improbable. SF Bay can sometimes induce storm-like conditions ... since I had the dealer adding a bow roller anyway, reinforcement seemed a no-brainer. YMMV

[Craig LaForce]

I think one that sliced the foredeck was in Australia. Maybe a loose mast rig and lots of little sawing motions back and forth did the trick, rather than one strong yank. CUriously, what the Aussie's might call one of us if we were to visit.

One strong Yank.

[Catigale]

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Well, I suppose different construction quality could also be an issue. Afterall, we have seen some structural problems that seem to be isolated to a small set of boats. Compared to say, the captains seat delamination which seems to happen on most x boats from what I've heard.

I believe there is a metal colar on the foretang if I remember correctly, it would have to cut through that first (assumably stronger than fiberglass) so I suppose the theory of a little constant movement could be possible to eventually work its way through.

As we have heard before, its light rigging, but on a very light boat so the two quantities should be proportional.

I now do tie my spin halyard to the bow pulpit when not in use. As I have a RF, this did not work right with the stock halyard since it would interfere with furling the sail. The new halyard is about 8 inches above the forestay attachment so that is enough to keep it out of trouble now.