45-60 watt solar unit on my bimini

[DaveB]

Sumner,
Back in 1982-1985 I built a Wind powered Generator and it worked excellent in the Trade Winds of the Carribean.
Those winds are usually 12-15 knots every day and would power all your elect. needs .
I didn't have voltage control back then(Reastrate voltage control) and had to shut down the 6 ft. redwood blade as it produced far more amps than needed to power refig. and other 12 volt items.
Back in the states it was usless because it only generated 1-2 amps in 7 knots of wind.
I have looked at current wind generators and they put out as much amps as I had up to 12 knots but mine went much higher at 12-15 amps in 15 knots of wind, but with a 6 ft. blade and noisy.
The chart you stated is probably close to what I have experanced but thats avarage 24 hrs. In FL. in late Spring to fall that 8 mph would be only 6-8 hrs a day avarage in Florida West Coast.
I would never think of installing a wind generator unless you are in a area that poduces 10 knots 12 hrs a day.
Even the new ones make noise that distract you compared to Silent Solar.
I would sugest to spend the money for the smallest rack with the most amps and warrenty for Solar.
Your higher gauge wireing and the controller is well worth the price for a travler spending over 2 weeks at a time and often.
How do you control Voltage and Amps from your Gen-set?
Dave

PS: On a 26 Mac.S were outboard only has a 5 amp rateing , a small windgenerator may come in handy motoring against a head wind up to 30 degrees off Port or Starboard as going 5.5 knots and apperant wind is 6 knots than you have around 11 knots that can be useful or even stronger headwinds of 12 knots you have 18 knots of wind that can produse 10 amps or more per hr.

...Do you think you could easily achieve 100% if you added a small wind generator, without too much additional daily effort? Ross

Now look at....



...the above chart that plots the wattage for one of the more popular wind generators that is in the $600-$800 range depending on who you buy it from. At 8 knots, more than 8 mph, it is putting out 28 watts and even at 12 kn it is only putting out 62 watts.

Now you might argue that if it is putting out 28 watts 24 hours a day vs. maybe a solar panel only putting out say 80% of it's advertised wattage for about 6 hours a day that it would be equal to about a 100 watt panel. That would probably be true, but now we are counting on the wind staying with the average, but the average is just that, some days it is higher and some days it is lower.

If you had a big battery bank, and low energy needs you might be fine with solar and wind, especially if you over-sized the whole system. But on a boat the size of a Mac that is going to be hard to do. Also remember they recommend that wind generators be installed at 20-30 foot heights and that isn't practical on a boat.

At some point we might add wind on the new boat as it is a lot larger, but in the mean time we added a Honda 2000 generator and a good charger to handle any times the solar we are putting on can't keep up. I could of moved the ....



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... de-13.html

...gen-set from the Mac over, but we want to keep that boat complete so that it is ready for use any time we might want to use it. The gen-set that I made is louder than the Honda, but not so much from the exhaust as I made a second muffler for it. The main noise is vibration from it running. We didn't want a Honda on the Mac as there is no good place to store it and the gen-set is always in place ready to go whenever needed. On the new boat, an Endeavour, there is a convenient place below to store it and hopefully with over twice the solar we won't have to pull it out much. We also got it to use off the boat for some other needs.

If we do add a wind generator it will probably be a commercial one vs. one I try and make. The one I quoted above also comes with a MPPT charger and they cost a couple hundred. Add that to finding a good blade and other items and pretty soon you would be up into the same expense and still wouldn't of had the design time they have put into their product. At home I probably will try and design something for use there as we would like to add solar and wind to the house as the years go on. We probably will tie into the grid if we do that.

Meanwhile I'd try and put as much solar on as possible and then use the outboard or a gen-set to fill in when needed.

Good luck,

Sum

[Sumner]

Sumner,
Back in 1982-1985 I built a Wind powered Generator and it worked excellent in the Trade Winds of the Carribean.
Those winds are usually 12-15 knots every day and would power all your elect. needs .
I didn't have voltage control back then(Reastrate voltage control) and had to shut down the 6 ft. redwood blade as it produced far more amps than needed to power refig. and other 12 volt items.
Back in the states it was usless because it only generated 1-2 amps in 7 knots of wind.
I have looked at current wind generators and they put out as much amps as I had up to 12 knots but mine went much higher at 12-15 amps in 15 knots of wind, but with a 6 ft. blade and noisy.
The chart you stated is probably close to what I have experanced but thats avarage 24 hrs. In FL. in late Spring to fall that 8 mph would be only 6-8 hrs a day avarage in Florida West Coast.
I would never think of installing a wind generator unless you are in a area that poduces 10 knots 12 hrs a day.
Even the new ones make noise that distract you compared to Silent Solar.
I would sugest to spend the money for the smallest rack with the most amps and warrenty for Solar.
Your higher gauge wireing and the controller is well worth the price for a travler spending over 2 weeks at a time and often.
How do you control Voltage and Amps from your Gen-set?
Dave

That is good info. Did you make your own blade? I'd be interested in any info you would like to share. I'm not so interested for the boat, but for our house.

We saw a fair number of boats with wind generators on our Florida travels. Most seemed to be pretty dedicated, probably full time cruisers. We hope to maybe be out up to 5-6 months at a time so a wind generator might be in the works down the road, but for now solar is where we have put our money and efforts for the reasons you stated. Solar is also getting a lot cheaper. About 15 years ago I paid $450 for a 40 watt panel and that was cheap at the time. The other day I paid $199.00 for a 100 watt panel and the 6 80 watt panels we bought for the new boat where $159.00 each.

The gen-set uses the stock GM alternator, 63 amps, and it regulates the volts/amps. A number of people that use an alternator also make/use a charge controller, but they are dealing with true deep cycle batteries. We try not to take our batteries under 50% charge (watching the voltage as an indicator). When they are at or near 50% the most amps I've seen from the alternator going to the batteries (2 12 volt wet cell) is about 22-24 amps. That quickly starts dropping. When I get down to 8-9 amps, usually about 20-30 minutes I shut the gen-set down as it just takes to long to top the batteries off. They don't recommend trying to top a battery off from 85% charged to 100% charged with a gen-set. The solar does a really good job of that.

On another note the MPPT charge controller puts more of the panels available power into a battery that has been taken down to 50% than a PWM controller can. If someone is putting on a small panel to just keep the batteries topped off then go with the PWM controller as you would be wasting money on the MPPT one. If you are discharging and recharging the batteries daily then go with the MPPT. At least that is my take on what I've read,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[Divecoz]

For those interested in MPPT charge controllers and what they do and why they do it............
http://www.windsun.com/ChargeControls/MPPT.htm
For our needs.. I will assume a 15 - 20 - or 30 amp controller is all we need and those can be bought for between $75 to less than $200 respectivley.
IF .......... anyone has found a Good = Best source for solar power ?? Please post your link...

[Crikey]

Sum and Divecoz,

Thanks for all your great information on this terrific subject. I will reference all of this when I put my first panel up in my next seson.

Can't help you with array prices at this time but the sun is runnning through fusion - would this help?


Regards .... Ross

[Divecoz]

Hummm..http://www.solarpowerbuzzmedia.com/2011 ... rator.html

fusion - would this help?


Regards .... Ross

[dlandersson]

For trickle charging - the technology has probably improved - this works well. Solarex 10m

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welc ... bOWrhyyYc0

I installed my trickle chargers today. My Dad and I built a wooden frame and the two panels are screwed to this frame. There are four legs that 'wedge' the frame between the toe rails but hold the frame up above the sliding hatch. I am using bungy cords to hold it down. Seems to be pretty secure.

I will take this off and put in the truck when I get to the marina...and then put it back on the boat at the end of the day. A little bit of a pain but not too bad. I will see if this gets me better battery performance...I always seem to have low charge on my batteries since I do more sailing than motoring normally.



Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König
Sailing on König YouTube Channel

[DaveB]

Sumner,
Their are a lot of blue water boats with wind generators but as I said they are not very useful in the US but they probably are World Cruisers or Carribean.
I made my wind Generator useing a aluminum tripod with a generator built in Boston for 12 volts and was the very few but best one I came accross in 1982. I built the tail wing out of aluminum and redwood blades (tried the 4 ft.,5 ft.and 6ft.) in St. Thomas. the 5 ft. worked the best in the trade winds.
No one had wind generator back than nor refigeration except the long distance big boats with a cold plate system (I had one of the first Adler Barber refig. in ice box.
Back than, new developments for cruisers were developeing very fast and when I left for my 3 year cruise it was right at the beginning.
I used a 1x4 red wood with straight grain and beveled the edge from 3/4 to 0 inches and cotored the back end.
I am a wood carver so it was easy for me. I expermented with several shapes to get it just right for best amps and less noise.
Thats 30 years ago and since than tecnolgy is far advance to my primitive designs.
Generating elect. for home is a lot diffrent in size but same pricipal as it was 30 years ago.
I have researched home style Generators a few years ago but were I live in small lot development it would't work because of noise and size restriction. I should move to the boonies were you can see wild life.
Best picture of the generator I have .
Dave

That is good info. Did you make your own blade? I'd be interested in any info you would like to share. I'm not so interested for the boat, but for our house.

We saw a fair number of boats with wind generators on our Florida travels. Most seemed to be pretty dedicated, probably full time cruisers. We hope to maybe be out up to 5-6 months at a time so a wind generator might be in the works down the road, but for now solar is where we have put our money and efforts for the reasons you stated. Solar is also getting a lot cheaper. About 15 years ago I paid $450 for a 40 watt panel and that was cheap at the time. The other day I paid $199.00 for a 100 watt panel and the 6 80 watt panels we bought for the new boat where $159.00 each.

The gen-set uses the stock GM alternator, 63 amps, and it regulates the volts/amps. A number of people that use an alternator also make/use a charge controller, but they are dealing with true deep cycle batteries. We try not to take our batteries under 50% charge (watching the voltage as an indicator). When they are at or near 50% the most amps I've seen from the alternator going to the batteries (2 12 volt wet cell) is about 22-24 amps. That quickly starts dropping. When I get down to 8-9 amps, usually about 20-30 minutes I shut the gen-set down as it just takes to long to top the batteries off. They don't recommend trying to top a battery off from 85% charged to 100% charged with a gen-set. The solar does a really good job of that.

On another note the MPPT charge controller puts more of the panels available power into a battery that has been taken down to 50% than a PWM controller can. If someone is putting on a small panel to just keep the batteries topped off then go with the PWM controller as you would be wasting money on the MPPT one. If you are discharging and recharging the batteries daily then go with the MPPT. At least that is my take on what I've read,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[Divecoz]

Sumner......Who's panel and where did you purchase it for $2 a watt.. ??

[Sumner]

....I made my wind Generator useing a aluminum tripod with a generator built in Boston for 12 volts and was the very few but best one I came accross in 1982. I built the tail wing out of aluminum and redwood blades (tried the 4 ft.,5 ft.and 6ft.) in St. Thomas. the 5 ft. worked the best in the trade winds.
No one had wind generator back than nor refigeration except the long distance big boats with a cold plate system (I had one of the first Adler Barber refig. in ice box.
Back than, new developments for cruisers were developeing very fast and when I left for my 3 year cruise it was right at the beginning.
I used a 1x4 red wood with straight grain and beveled the edge from 3/4 to 0 inches and cotored the back end.
I am a wood carver so it was easy for me. I expermented with several shapes to get it just right for best amps and less noise.
Thats 30 years ago and since than tecnolgy is far advance to my primitive designs.
Generating elect. for home is a lot diffrent in size but same pricipal as it was 30 years ago....

Dave thanks for the additional info on the generator you made. I'm impressed . Doing something for the house is probably 2 years away. I have lots of projects going on now, but I'll keep that info for further use. I also am making a frig/freeze this summer to take back for the new boat. The freezer will be about 1 cu. ft. and the frig about 3 cu. ft. and will be based on the Adler compressor and other parts. It will be a 'spill over' design with air from the freezer section cooling the frig part.

Sumner......Who's panel and where did you purchase it for $2 a watt.. ??

I've gotten our panels and charge controllers from Solar Blvd.....

http://www.solarblvd.com/

They have been good to deal with and have competitive pricing. I've seen panels a little cheaper on e-bay and such, but I'm also interested in knowing that the company will likely be there a year or more from now. The panels I've been getting or the Solar Cynergy ones. They are their 'in-house' panels. They seem to be well made and I have had no problems with them.

One thing to note is that their panels will change dimensions at times. When we went to Florida I had one of their 40's, a 60 and an 80 on the boat....



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... de-33.html

This spring I hit a piling after getting fuel and destroyed the 80 and bent up the supports system. I called them and they had an 80 on sale for $159 and got it right out to me and we had it in a couple days and put it on. The only problem was that the 80 they now had was longer and narrower than the 80 I had on before, so now it stuck out further.

At that point even though we didn't have another boat I ordered 5 more of the 80's on sale and had them shipped to our house. Then we bought the second boat and I wanted to put 6 80's on and they now didn't have the 80 in stock and didn't know what size the next ones would be. To help with the Mac and the other boat I have decided to steal the 80 off the Mac and put it with the 5 other 80's I had gotten and ordered the 100 for the Mac to replace the 80. Confusing??

I'm also remounting the ones on the Mac so they don't overhang the sides, but extend a little further out back. The 100 will go fore/aft on the port side where the 60/40 are in the picture above and I'll move the 60 over to the starboard side where the 80 was and the 40 will be above the swim ladder will hinge over so that if I need to stand in that area it will be out of the way. The moral of the story is the Solar Cynergy panels they put together are good, but one might want to get a spare if they make custom mounts. I have a feeling this problem of changing sizes might also apply to some of the other manufactures also.

For those interested in MPPT charge controllers and what they do and why they do it............
http://www.windsun.com/ChargeControls/MPPT.htm
For our needs.. I will assume a 15 - 20 - or 30 amp controller is all we need and those can be bought for between $75 to less than $200 respectivley.
IF .......... anyone has found a Good = Best source for solar power ?? Please post your link...

That is a great link. The best explanation I've seen about the MPPT controllers.

We bought a 25 amp....

http://www.solarblvd.com/Charge-Control ... _info.html

....and bought the above one for some of the extra features, but haven't used them. I considered the more expensive one as it has a second circuit you can use that will charge a motor battery at 2 amps. Since we don't have an engine battery separate from the house bank I decided to not use that feature. For someone who does have separate banks that might come in handy. This is the same one without....

http://www.solarblvd.com/Charge-Control ... _info.html

....the extra features. Actually the 80, 60 and 40 watt panels have a max. combined amp ratting of 10.5 amps at their designed output voltage, so we could of gotten by with a 15 amp. I did some checking and kind of narrowed it down to the Blue Sky brand, but others are also good. We had bought a MorningStar PWM for a lot less, but hadn't installed it and I decided that we should switch to the MPPT. Solar Blvd took the PWM one back at full price with no questions asked and shipped the MPPT controller. As I said I've had good luck with them,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[DaveB]

Sum, came accross this photo in my records, think it was installed on a 30 ft. boat.
Notice the arms/legs tied into the Bimini top. I think this would be good light weight and less wind resistant using Aluminum tubeing in winds less than 30 knots, over that would have to be Stainless steel.

Dave

....the extra features. Actually the 80, 60 and 40 watt panels have a max. combined amp ratting of 10.5 amps at their designed output voltage, so we could of gotten by with a 15 amp. I did some checking and kind of narrowed it down to the Blue Sky brand, but others are also good. We had bought a MorningStar PWM for a lot less, but hadn't installed it and I decided that we should switch to the MPPT. Solar Blvd took the PWM one back at full price with no questions asked and shipped the MPPT controller. As I said I've had good luck with them,

Sum

[Sumner]

Sum, came accross this photo in my records, think it was installed on a 30 ft. boat.
Notice the arms/legs tied into the Bimini top. I think this would be good light weight and less wind resistant using Aluminum tubeing in winds less than 30 knots, over that would have to be Stainless steel.

Dave

Thanks, that is pretty close to what I'm going to make before going back. One difference is that the panel frame will be independent from the Bimini frame, but right next to it, so it should blend in pretty well. Our Bimini top also has the window and I want to for sure keep that and might put one in the Bimini for the Mac. We will have two panels pretty much like in the picture with their long sides oriented fore/aft and then two ahead of those oriented with their long sides going from side to side. The there will be 2 more back above the dinghy davits. They are all 80 watt panels and I want them inside the boats rub rails to try and keep them out of the pilings down there.

I wish the Endeavour's Bimini and Dodger looked as nice as the ones in your picture. We brought the frames and the Bimini and Dodger home with us and Ruth is going to make up new ones hopefully using the old ones as patterns. We will also modify the design slightly, but they are really nice the way they can work together and/or separately with bug netting on them, but the material and zippers are shot. We are also going to change all the brown on the boat to Ocean Blue like on the Mac,

Thanks again for the picture,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[DaveB]

Sum,
Is your Endeavour a 32 ft early 1980's. If so I know the boat inside/ out as in 1980 I had to chose of buying a new Endeavour 32 or a 1965 Pearson Alberg 35 and equip. for a World Cruise.
The Endeavor 32 was not considered as a World Cruiser at the time.
It now is considered a Semi offshore Blue water cruiser with upgrades.
Back than it was a diffrent Story were Navigation was Celetial and to do 1500 mile passages thru Blue waters and 40 ft. Seas I Thought at the time the Endeavour 32 wasn't strong enough tho I liked interor arrangements cured was a boat untested and unfounded.It was also stated as a Coastal Cruiser.
The Endeavour 32 actually proved itself for short distant Blue water Sailing.
I still consider it a great boat for Bahamas Cruise and do a proper refit, to Cruise the leeward and Windward Islands.
Dave

Sum, came accross this photo in my records, think it was installed on a 30 ft. boat.
Notice the arms/legs tied into the Bimini top. I think this would be good light weight and less wind resistant using Aluminum tubeing in winds less than 30 knots, over that would have to be Stainless steel.

Dave

Thanks, that is pretty close to what I'm going to make before going back. One difference is that the panel frame will be independent from the Bimini frame, but right next to it, so it should blend in pretty well. Our Bimini top also has the window and I want to for sure keep that and might put one in the Bimini for the Mac. We will have two panels pretty much like in the picture with their long sides oriented fore/aft and then two ahead of those oriented with their long sides going from side to side. The there will be 2 more back above the dinghy davits. They are all 80 watt panels and I want them inside the boats rub rails to try and keep them out of the pilings down there.

I wish the Endeavour's Bimini and Dodger looked as nice as the ones in your picture. We brought the frames and the Bimini and Dodger home with us and Ruth is going to make up new ones hopefully using the old ones as patterns. We will also modify the design slightly, but they are really nice the way they can work together and/or separately with bug netting on them, but the material and zippers are shot. We are also going to change all the brown on the boat to Ocean Blue like on the Mac,

Thanks again for the picture,

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[Crikey]

So Dave, did you ever do that world cruise?

Ross

[Sumner]

Sum,
Is your Endeavour a 32 ft early 1980's. If so I know the boat inside/ out as in 1980 I had to chose of buying a new Endeavour 32 or a 1965 Pearson Alberg 35 and equip. for a World Cruise.
The Endeavor 32 was not considered as a World Cruiser at the time.
It now is considered a Semi offshore Blue water cruiser with upgrades.
Back than it was a diffrent Story were Navigation was Celetial and to do 1500 mile passages thru Blue waters and 40 ft. Seas I Thought at the time the Endeavour 32 wasn't strong enough tho I liked interor arrangements cured was a boat untested and unfounded.It was also stated as a Coastal Cruiser.
The Endeavour 32 actually proved itself for short distant Blue water Sailing.
I still consider it a great boat for Bahamas Cruise and do a proper refit, to Cruise the leeward and Windward Islands.
Dave

We looked at a 32, but bought a 37. Quite a bit bigger boat (displacement 20,000 lb, 8000 lb of ballast and 4'6" draft. I have read about one guy if I remember right that did sailed a 32 from Australia through the Panama Canal and on to Florida. There are some 37's scattered around the world. We have no intentions of any trips like that or what you have accomplished. We just wanted a good strong, steady boat the we, Ruth especially, would feel safe on under most conditions. We hope to explore the Gulf, Keys, maybe the Bahamas and up the East Coast while we own her.

I finally got some pictures and what have you up on the new boat....

http://www.macgregor26x.com/forum/viewt ... 03e3aa969a

Take care and keep the info coming and think about writing about your trip at some point. I'll bet it would be interesting reading,

Sum and Ruth

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

Our Endeavour 37 Pages

[DaveB]

No but spent 3 years traveling from Cape Cod ma. down the Intercoastal Waterway to Beaufort N.C for the 1200 mile jump to St. Thomas (3 days 40 ft. Seas) than most of the Leeward and Windward Islands down to Venezuala doing many Ports and trips in S. America Includeing Angel Falls than back up to Purto Rico,Diminica than Bahamas.
That took 3 years, no way I could do a trip around the World in 3 years and seen and experanced what I did in the Carribean.
Planning for 12 years and actually experance it is a whole diffrent mind bloging experance. Challenges are a dream one needs to hope for. Doing it is whole lot diffrent and goals change as the wind shifts in your travels.
Experance the best and stay as long as you like ,than move on.
Dave

So Dave, did you ever do that world cruise?

Ross