Which baterry?

[Boblee]

Personally don't think non vrla batteries have a place in boats due to the fumes especially once they have developed a fault and will heat up like I suspect was the problem here making the fume problem worse.

Funny thing , that after we got home I checked the two wet cells and both were dry as a bone , I had checked them not long before that . I refilled them but they are slowly losing voltage , I guess damage was done.

Even VRLA batteries will cause dangerous fumes when a cell/cells shorts out causing heat but not to the same extent.
Comes back to basics but with the variations needed to suit all applications it can get a bit complicated and more so if basics aren't observed like fully charging your batteries with a quality charger at every opportunity.
Three Gypsies I have no idea how far we have travelled or how long we have lived on the boat but have lived on it in total over 2 yrs we are still using the original mac battery from 2006 and replaced another s/h one that had been there for 6? yrs with another s/h one out of our truck.
If using solar use a good three stage regulator and make sure it is at float level before leaving boat or be sure solar will finish the job.
This could be a good read found it while exploring the c-tek site about their d250s charger their support team sent me the link. http://www.warbonnet.com.au/store.html

[Ixneigh]

I have the smaller panel glued onto the slide hatch. I have the larger one hinged to the mast support arch. I don't bother to aim either of them. One can hinge up and down but nut side to side, and the other is just horizontal.
My power needs are low, and I have more panel then I really need.
My largest amp draw used to be my laptop, but with the advent of tablets like the iPad or galaxy, power consumption in that department has decreased.
I plan to redo my boats accent lighting to try to lessen the power draw there. Even though it's led, it still brings the house battery down to 70 percent every night running them for four hours each evening ( the time most boaters are active here) I don't run them if it's been really cloudy for more then a few days.
Interestingly, it turned out my cheapie solar regulator seemed not to have been working. The indicator lit up, but there was no voltage at the leads. Seemingly, the solar output was lighting the indicator, but that was all. Kept wondering why the battery seemed low all the time. All my power was coming from the small solar panel on the slide hatch.
I replaced the defective unit with a much more expensive master volt brand unit that requires an advanced degree in reading and comprehension to set up correctly. However, this has a battery level indicator, plus a charge indicator.
Ix

[Three Gypsies]

On our Gypsy we have two battery banks . Two batteries are the marine type start/deep cycle , wet cell batteries , used for starting and powering the 110vac inverter .

For the house batteries , I have two deep cycle , blue top Optimas . They are charged from the 200 watts of solar cells and power the Engle freezer and cabin .

Before we took our long cruise we took two short ones of 1,000 miles each . I had wet cell large deep cycle batteries for house batteries and they promptly died after the two cruises . That's when I replaced them with the smaller blue top batteries .
On our 8 month 3,000 mile cruise the Blue tops performed great !!

This year , before we leave , I plan to replace my two wet cell start batteries with two yellow tops .
If I do install a 110vac refrigerator it will be powered by these batteries which charge off of our Honda 50 .

Funny thing , that after we got home I checked the two wet cells and both were dry as a bone , I had checked them not long before that . I refilled them but they are slowly losing voltage , I guess damage was done.
But that does give me the needed excuse to replace them with the yellow tops.

As another fellow wrote , I too am a retired Industrial Electrician . During my career , I designed , built , and repaired many low voltage systems , and battery backup systems . But nothing seems to compare to boats and their batteries ! I learn something new everyday !

Interesting about the two wet cells - obviously way overcharged. Was there a charge controller between them and the solar panels?

No these two wet cells mainly just charged off the motor .
The two blue top batteries are connected to the solar cells .
occasionally , I would turn the switch and put all 4 batteries charging from the motor , such as a cloudy day .
Could it be the regulator in the Honda 50 is going out ? Or was it just time for these batteries to go ?

[Boblee]

For the last three months our two permanent boat batteries have been kept charged by a small 10"X 8" panel which plugs into an Anderson plug on the arch that our normal working panels (130w) sit on, but at anytime I can check the state of charge etc and it keeps the batteries at full charge, this is essential to a long battery life.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SOLAR-REGULA ... 53e6adabee
This is not the same brand but exactly the same unit, the only problem is the lcd starts to break down after about two years but they still work perfectly, I have had three over many years, they make conserving and knowing what your battery is doing so easy.
I use it only for charging, the protected supply circuit is not used but in the photo it was to control the pumps, the two cables on the left are now not connected.

Unbelievable Three Gypsies you posted while I was writing, that hasn't happenned for a long while on this forum accroos our countries, you must be up late or something.
Re the two batteries not charging from your boat alternator IMHO it would be wise to charge all your batteries from a dedicated charger, even car alternators cannot be relied on to charge batteries fully especially the new ones and more so when in dual arrangements.
The Ctek d250s would be a good choice as it is a dual channel charger that can select internally either but not both solar or 12.7-13.1 dcv and convert it to IMHO the best possible charging solution for most battery types and if used with a conventional supply will protect the start battery but if the supply alternator is variable or "drop charge" by using the solar input terminal and a relay you can use it with these too, for us we need more flexibility.
http://www.ctekbatterychargers.com.au/c ... -dual.html

[DaveB]

Very simple, you have twin house batteries that have a controller from solar panels direct to your house batteries. You have a selector switch from outboard to that switch. One goes to house, other goes to starter battery. You have a diode that prevents discharge from house to starter battery.
You always have Solar connected to house batteries as this is the sorce you need charging.
The Solar Panels need a proper size for them, I use a 6amp controller for my twin 40 watt solar panels.
You never want to get wet Cell Deep Cycles below 50% discharge (12.1 Volts) as they burn off wet cells fluid rapid rate and will fry your battery by deleting fluid in battery below plate level.
With the diode you never worry about discharge starter battery.
Dave

[seahouse]

No these two wet cells mainly just charged off the motor .
The two blue top batteries are connected to the solar cells .
occasionally , I would turn the switch and put all 4 batteries charging from the motor , such as a cloudy day .
Could it be the regulator in the Honda 50 is going out ? Or was it just time for these batteries to go ?

Strictly speaking, it is not proper to charge two batteries (and especially not 4) with the motor alternator, designed to charge one, at once. It reduces both the short and long-term battery life because the level of charge and proper rate cannot be detected and determined for each battery individually by the alternator electronics.

You might get away with it with two identical batteries, at similar states of charge, but otherwise you will end up either over, or under (more likely) charging one of them. Chronically. The charge level of the higher voltage battery will be detected and the charge stage set for it, before the other has reached that stage, which does not promote battery longevity.

Especially verboten is mixing different battery types when "gang" charging, because the final full charge voltage varies with different battery technologies, so the voltage "read" by the charger will almost certainly be incorrect for at least one of the batteries.

There are different, and better ways to skin this cat, with devices on the market to do it, as Dave and Bob have suggested above.

[Three Gypsies]

My two start batteries are the same size and brand , wet cells start/deepcycle .
My two house batteries are the same size and brand also , blue top deep cycle .

I agree with you both , I shouldn't be charging them in the ALL position .
I should charge BANK #1 then BANK #2

That may be what boiled the water out of my wet cells .
In fact The last two weeks we were coming up the Alabama river , in some bad weather , so I was using the motor as my only charging source , most of the time .

I have no choice but to charge two at a time , unless I divide the banks . When I am cruising the only charging options I have are the 200 watts of solar cells or the motor .

When I replace the wet cells with two yellow tops , I think I will have the perfect setup , as I have been very happy with my two blue tops.

[bartmac]

We solved our charging problem for both our Mac and camper by installing a DC to DC charger (both have 2 banks).....the idea that the charging regime for "house" bank can then be programmed exactly to suit the chemistry.....and all using a voltage sensitive relay so it happens automatically

[Boblee]

Bartmac
If you don't want to use your start batteries for house back up (we do) the Ctek D250s is the best option IMHO,it is a dual channel unit it cuts out at 12.7v and cuts back in at 13.1 on one input which basically isolates the start battery when the motor is not charging and starts it again when it is and the start battery has recovered to 13.1.
It also has an mppt input for solar which internally selects the best supply but keeps them seperate so no need for diodes/relays.
http://www.ctekbatterychargers.com.au/c ... -dual.html
They also have the smartpass which couples to the D250s and which does the job of a vsr to protect your house batteries from going too low but can handle a high load, IMHO this is not really needed on a boat as most fridges etc cut out before they cause damage and we don't have high loads unless eg an anchor winch is used so the same job if needed can be done by a normal 30amp vsr.
For us/me there is nothing flexible enough made commercially but for the simple straight forward system there is plenty.
Re the charging of multiple batteries together, it is not without pitfalls but can be done, I regularly charge my start and two house batteries together (from a variety of sources), yes it can mask a faulty battery which will pull the others down so you check and test regular but basically keep an eye open for irregularities.
Yes we lost a battery last year but it was s/h when it went in, I noticed it because there was the fumes but eventually because it was hot and the system was not holding charge but as mentioned before the start battery is 2006 and probably made earlier.

[DaveB]

Why I use twin Group 29 wet cell deep cycle for house and a group same type but group 24 for Starter battery.
This will charge the batteries independent from House and Starter Battery, one will not discharge to other.
The Diode charges the weak batteries first. No damage to both House and starter battery.
Just don't let batteries go below 50% discharge as they will burn fluid in batteries and shorter life.
http://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm
Alternator on outboards auto adjust with 12 volt systems regardless how many 12 volt batteries you have. (12 volts is 12 volts in same number of batteries)
Have stated this many times on the forum.
One thing more, put your selector switch to both when running the outboard with the Yandina connected .
I forgot once and turned just to #1 and that's starter battery and no charge to house.
Just one other thing, connecting two house or more togeather you always have Positive to positive , Neg. to Neg.
If you have 2- 6 volt Golf Cart batteries, you run Positive to Neg. to get 12 volts.
Dave

No these two wet cells mainly just charged off the motor .
The two blue top batteries are connected to the solar cells .
occasionally , I would turn the switch and put all 4 batteries charging from the motor , such as a cloudy day .
Could it be the regulator in the Honda 50 is going out ? Or was it just time for these batteries to go ?

Strictly speaking, it is not proper to charge two batteries (and especially not 4) with the motor alternator, designed to charge one, at once. It reduces both the short and long-term battery life because the level of charge and proper rate cannot be detected and determined for each battery individually by the alternator electronics.

You might get away with it with two identical batteries, at similar states of charge, but otherwise you will end up either over, or under (more likely) charging one of them. Chronically. The charge level of the higher voltage battery will be detected and the charge stage set for it, before the other has reached that stage, which does not promote battery longevity.

Especially verboten is mixing different battery types when "gang" charging, because the final full charge voltage varies with different battery technologies, so the voltage "read" by the charger will almost certainly be incorrect for at least one of the batteries.

There are different, and better ways to skin this cat, with devices on the market to do it, as Dave and Bob have suggested above.

[seahouse]

Re the charging of multiple batteries together, it is not without pitfalls but can be done, I regularly charge my start and two house batteries together (from a variety of sources), yes it can mask a faulty battery which will pull the others down so you check and test regular but basically keep an eye open for irregularities. (etc etc above)

Yup Bob, precisely.

I shouldn't be charging them in the ALL position .
I should charge BANK #1 then BANK #2

That may be what boiled the water out of my wet cells .
In fact The last two weeks we were coming up the Alabama river , in some bad weather , so I was using the motor as my only charging source , most of the time .

I have no choice but to charge two at a time , unless I divide the banks . When I am cruising the only charging options I have are the 200 watts of solar cells or the motor .

I think you've got the right idea, it might be the best you can do that's simple, ThreeGypsies. Of course, be carefull with your switching when the motor alternator is working.

Alternator on outboards auto adjust with 12 volt systems regardless how many 12 volt batteries you have.

Are you sure about that Dave?

The alternator of the outboard has no way of distinguishing the condition, type, or state of charge of the individual batteries and therefore cannot accurately determine the charging requirements of each when they are wired together. At best it is only able to measure the “average” voltage of the two, or more batteries. Not ideal if battery reliability and longevity are among the priorities.

Even if it were able to somehow determine the batteries' charge needs individually, it still would be unable to deliver the proper charge rate to each because the two wires are combined; there would need to be separate leads running to each battery from the alternator for that to occur.

While chargers that are intended to charge two or more batteries are equipped with these leads (two for each battery), an engine alternator that is not so equiped (and there are some that are, diesels for example) will not charge both batteries properly.

Note that I refer here to what should properly be done according to manufacturer's technical standards and recommendations, and not what can (anecdotally) be done.

And it's perfectly OK to do something that is contrary to industry standards (I do off-beat stuff all the time*), however, when advising others to do the same, I'm just making them aware that that is the case, and of its implications.

-Brian.

*shocking, I know.

[raycarlson]

Dave is correct on this one. virtually any AC charging system made today will sense and automatically adjust amperage output by sensing battery voltage. this is why DC generators are no longer used. An alternator making AC voltage then converting it back to DC is much more easily regulated by the ECM, this is why almost all light duty systems be it automotive marine or aviation have gone this route. But I still don't understand why you guys dedicate an entire battery system to just engine starting, with these little engines its such a waste when that bank of AH's could be added to your house bank. Even below 50% charge your little outboard will still spin over easily.

[seahouse]

You are correct, Ray. However, that was not the point in question here. Reading the thread more closely, you will see that the issue is that when charging more than one battery at a time, the alternator cannot resolve the charge requirements of more than one battery at a time...

[DaveB]

The Alternator only regs the output. the Diode regs. the input and controls it to all batteries.
Just click on the link on previous post and install the Diode.
Will solve your issues.
Dave

You are correct, Ray. However, that was not the point in question here. Reading the thread more closely, you will see that the issue is that when charging more than one battery at a time, the alternator cannot resolve the charge requirements of more than one battery at a time...

[seahouse]

Now I see, Dave. You were referencing it in regard to the link to the combiner in your post. You meant the alternator is capable of charging two batteries (but not more) when a combiner is installed. And it's the combiner that has the two leads per battery required for better control of charge rate to each. That makes better sense!

Now... back to the retirement thing!!!