ETEC 90: Poor Motoring Performance
Such dedicated support is truly appreciated : :Can you believe the test wheel the evinrude dealer tried on my boat was not the correct one for a 90 etec.bombardier in sydney are sending us the correct one.My bet is it will show my engine is down on power.If my motor can only pull 4700 rpm and an identical boat motor prop to mine is doing 5500 then its got to come back to lack of power.The only difference between our 2 boats is mine is new and not full of junk yet....makes the difference even worse...will find out with perseverence..is that spelt right???
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waternwaves
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- Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while
Sure sems like the engine temp sensors (plural) are limiting the computer control of engine speed.
somehow it does not seem reasonable on that engine that one cylinder is not firing. (you would feel and hear that.) I would either have the dealer or myself check engine sensor wiring for all 3 or 4 of the thermal sensors
somehow it does not seem reasonable on that engine that one cylinder is not firing. (you would feel and hear that.) I would either have the dealer or myself check engine sensor wiring for all 3 or 4 of the thermal sensors
I wonder... The 75/90 is basically the 40/50/60 with a 3rd cylinder. So, it can clearly run on two... Although, I'd think they'd adjust the timing such that a 3 cly motor running on 2 would present a noticable rough running condition...waternwaves wrote:somehow it does not seem reasonable on that engine that one cylinder is not firing. (you would feel and hear that.)
Besides, while a new owner may not know what to expect, surely a dealer would spot something like that instantly...
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waternwaves
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- Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while
The software for the 3 cylinder will not fire smoothly on a dead cylinder, it will not automatically remove firing pulses from a dead cylinder singly, it will decrease rpm (increase firing interval for all 3 cylinders) for high sensor temp(3 I believe) , low ignition resistance , low fuel pressure, etc.
You can test it easily, pull one set of plug wires off at a time, and try to raise the RPM, you will hear and FEEL the unbalance.
You can test it easily, pull one set of plug wires off at a time, and try to raise the RPM, you will hear and FEEL the unbalance.
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Bobby T.-26X #4767
- Captain
- Posts: 906
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:48 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Oceanside Harbor, CA
this was JonBill's story in July '05 after a year of dissatisfaction with a new tohatsu 90 TLDI:
since corrected, he gets to the 24-25mph range with a 14" x 11 pitch prop.Bob,
This may be hard to believe but this is the story of what was wrong with my motor.
I finally waited long enough and this dealer where it's been the last 6 weeks ran my boat last week.
He confirmed for himself that it was under powered. He didn't tell me what exactly was his trouble shooting method but he discovered one of the "air" injectors on the first cylinder wasn't working. So it was warantee work to fix.
I really appreciate your help as by comparison to your performance I knew I had to press the issue with getting it diagnosed properly. When the Tohatsu factory guys told my dealer nothing was wrong with the motor I knew I had to find a more knowledgeable mechanic to deal with them. But that's another story on their lack of support.
With the air injector not working the cylinder wasn't firing. Can you believe that? Which means I was running on 2 cylinders. Which means they were pulling the dead cylinder through the compression stroke. So I wasn't able to get even 60 HP but only 50 or less, which was my original estimate. Now it was working this way out of the box brand new.
It ran so good on only two cyliners firing that my selling dealer and his mechanic didn't know anything was wrong. Then he retired and the guy that took over his dealership, he tried to find out what was wrong and he couldn't tell after I brought it back to him this year with the complaint of being under powered.
Then I took it to the best supposedly Tohatsu mechanic on the gulf coast of Texas in Port O'Conner and he couldn't tell by running the engine what was wrong and didn't have time to do warantee work.
Then I took it to this dealer way down in Rock Port and he was able to find the problem. I had to write the factory very strong worded emails to get them to finally pay attention as they didn't argue with this dealer when he told them what was wrong as they have to approve the warantee work.
It ran so smooth on two cylinders that nobody knew anything was wrong with it. That's good for you or anybody else with a Tohatsu to know I guess because if you lose one you're going to make it back from whereever you are for sure but just underpowered.
I've been running it a whole year this way. I've got 70 hours on the engine with running on two cylinders and now finally it's a screeming machine. 5500 RPM on the 11 pitch prop and 25 to 30 MPH is incredible. Maybe I should have got only a 50 HP after all. Because actually 18-20 MPH was fast enough for me.
Thanks again for your help.
Kindest Regards,
JonBill
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waternwaves
- Admiral
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- Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while
The cylinder air injector not working does not cause the cylinder to quit firing, it merely causes the gas scavanging to decrease and less of a qty of air available to continue combustion in the cylinder,
That injector failing merely causes a different stochiometric gas concentration and less mixing of the gas in the cylinder. End result is a richer mixture . lower temp, lower horsepower.
These engines use a rich mixture immediately adjacant to the spark plug to detonate a leaner mixture in the cylinder farther away from the plug tip.
The tohatsu wiring diagram does not show an air pressure sensor to each
cylinder. (the engine electronics cannot detect the loss of injection air pressure)
That injector failing merely causes a different stochiometric gas concentration and less mixing of the gas in the cylinder. End result is a richer mixture . lower temp, lower horsepower.
These engines use a rich mixture immediately adjacant to the spark plug to detonate a leaner mixture in the cylinder farther away from the plug tip.
The tohatsu wiring diagram does not show an air pressure sensor to each
cylinder. (the engine electronics cannot detect the loss of injection air pressure)
Not sure about the m, but like Duane said the x is really a true powerboat hull with a sail. I've done 28 knots gps groundspeed with my 90 tohatsu, no ballast, mast up, only me aboard, and maybe wind and a 1 knot current behind me. In lakelike conditions I do 23 knots with 450 pounds of people/no ballast.
I powered to Catalina last thanksgiving(our third turkey day in a row there) averaging 18 knots 3/4 throttle, wife kid, 10 foot dingy on bow, 400 pounds gas and gear, no ballast smooth conditions.
With ballast full I can top out at 17 knots good conditions, average 14 knots downthrottled for chop and swell. I sail downwind and reaching with genoa only at 3-5 knots. Upwind I get usual weak pointing performance everybody here seems to--
No structural issues with transom or hull after almost 3 years of exclusive ocean use. Hope next 5 are as performance filled / trouble-free.
Note: The weight of the mast and 80 pound dinghy on bow really help performance in rougher seas when not ballasted. A wife and daughter sleeping in bow make the x stay down even better.
Rolf
I powered to Catalina last thanksgiving(our third turkey day in a row there) averaging 18 knots 3/4 throttle, wife kid, 10 foot dingy on bow, 400 pounds gas and gear, no ballast smooth conditions.
With ballast full I can top out at 17 knots good conditions, average 14 knots downthrottled for chop and swell. I sail downwind and reaching with genoa only at 3-5 knots. Upwind I get usual weak pointing performance everybody here seems to--
No structural issues with transom or hull after almost 3 years of exclusive ocean use. Hope next 5 are as performance filled / trouble-free.
Note: The weight of the mast and 80 pound dinghy on bow really help performance in rougher seas when not ballasted. A wife and daughter sleeping in bow make the x stay down even better.
Rolf
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
- Contact:
Based on my experience last Monday your rough seas must not really be very rough if slowing to 14 knots gets you through.
We were out in 30+ knot winds (NOAA weather radio reported a steady 32 knots at West Point) piling up 5' - 6' very steep closely packed breaking seas. The ballast was full, the mast was on, and we were loaded in our normal heavy fashion after 4 days out.
It was not possible to exceed 6 knots and keep the X hull in the water. we had to slow to the 5's, and take a 60 degree angle of attack to the waves to cross the 5 miles of open water from Agate Pass to Shilshole without pounding the boat to death. Buckets and more buckets of spray were continually cascading on our enclosure. We could not have made the passage without the fully enclosed cockpit. The bow frequently was burying in the steep wave faces but at least at this speed the boat sliced into the waves instead of climbing and launching off them.
Even with bare poles the boat was heeled 15 degrees to port in the wind. The waves would slap very high up the now raised starboard side as the breaking crests rolled under. The bow hatch was screwed down as tight as possible yet water still made it in past the seal.
It was even worse in Lake Washington. We crossed north of the SR520 floating bridge using it's protection to our advantage. Then we had to turn under the east channel high rise and go due south along Medina (past Bill Gates's house). This put us nose on to the waves and anything more than a 4 knot speed saw the boat trying to launch into orbit off the crests.
A big motor is of no advantage in real rough water. Even a 50 hp can drive the boat too fast for these conditions.
We were out in 30+ knot winds (NOAA weather radio reported a steady 32 knots at West Point) piling up 5' - 6' very steep closely packed breaking seas. The ballast was full, the mast was on, and we were loaded in our normal heavy fashion after 4 days out.
It was not possible to exceed 6 knots and keep the X hull in the water. we had to slow to the 5's, and take a 60 degree angle of attack to the waves to cross the 5 miles of open water from Agate Pass to Shilshole without pounding the boat to death. Buckets and more buckets of spray were continually cascading on our enclosure. We could not have made the passage without the fully enclosed cockpit. The bow frequently was burying in the steep wave faces but at least at this speed the boat sliced into the waves instead of climbing and launching off them.
Even with bare poles the boat was heeled 15 degrees to port in the wind. The waves would slap very high up the now raised starboard side as the breaking crests rolled under. The bow hatch was screwed down as tight as possible yet water still made it in past the seal.
It was even worse in Lake Washington. We crossed north of the SR520 floating bridge using it's protection to our advantage. Then we had to turn under the east channel high rise and go due south along Medina (past Bill Gates's house). This put us nose on to the waves and anything more than a 4 knot speed saw the boat trying to launch into orbit off the crests.
A big motor is of no advantage in real rough water. Even a 50 hp can drive the boat too fast for these conditions.
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Frank C
Haven't faced conditions quite that severe, but I still have a slightly different take on the motor issue. I've motored 5 miles across steep Bay conditions, more like 3 to 4 feet, and have felt the extra torque of my DF-60 and 14" prop were well worth the investment.
Regardless that top speed is held to less than 10 knots, a 10 or 25 horse outboard would clearly have been less safe. I have always felt satisfaction in the way that extra torque can help to hold 2 tons of ballasted boat climbing over a large wake or chop. I think any less than 50 HP is a mistake for continuous use in coastal conditions ... more is better.
Regardless that top speed is held to less than 10 knots, a 10 or 25 horse outboard would clearly have been less safe. I have always felt satisfaction in the way that extra torque can help to hold 2 tons of ballasted boat climbing over a large wake or chop. I think any less than 50 HP is a mistake for continuous use in coastal conditions ... more is better.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
- Admiral
- Posts: 2459
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:41 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Bellevue, Wa '96 26x, Tohatsu 90 TLDI and Plug In Hybrid Electric drive
- Contact:
Eric3a
The Dowsar enclosure is very strong and stood up to the wind and water without incident. My only complaint is quite minor. The front edge of the bimini canvas forms a flap that covers the zipper that joins the bimini and the connector. The wind was so strong that this flap was blown back exposing the zipper. Over time we got a few drips in the cockpit where the water made it's way through the zipper. I think I could easily fix the issue with a couple well placed chunks of velcro that would keep the flap tight against the connector.
We did have water that made it's way under the dodger and ran back into the cockpit along the companionway sides and down onto the seats. This caused the cheap macgregor open cell foam cockpit cushions to get wet. All in all though I couldn't have been happier with the enclosures performance. We had the companionway hatch open the whole way across and didn't get any water down below.
I don't think any sail would have helped. The main was down and inside it's sail cover and the genoa was furled. Just with these and the enclosure we had more than enough exposed windage. I had the centerboard down and one rudder down and had to counter the tendancy of the boat to round up a bit with the steering. In hindsight perhaps I should have tried to raise the centerboard some but this would have been hard with all the pressure on it. Maybe a bit of headsail would have balanced things better.
We did have to go down wind on the way north in Port Orchard to the Agate Pass bridge. This is always a harder course to steer. The waves weren't as big but still wouldn't handle more that 6-7 knots. In this and a couple of other heavy weather experiences I have had I've never been worried about dunking the engine. The aft end of the X floats high and lifts easily. I have however had the opposite happen where the lift going over a wave combined with the heel has pulled the prop clear of the water.
What's interesting is most people would classify Puget Sound, and particularly Lake Washington as "Protected Waters". We weren't out in the Pacific here. Given a good blow and 5-10 miles of open fetch any body of water can become really rough. In a way these were harder conditions to deal with than ocean ones. Because the waves were purely wind driven they were tightly packed where things often are more spread out in the ocean.
The good news is this was about as rough as it can get around here and the MacGregor was more than up to seeing us through it safely and comfortably.
Frank,
The 12" prop on the Tohatsu 50hp was more than able to handle the situation. It had no tendancy to stall climbing a wave even when we were slowed to 4 knots in the lake. I agree that using a smaller engine would be folly and you can always slow down a bigger one. As we were crossing a few times I thought about what would happen if the Tohatsu died and I had to switch to my 6hp backup. I think I would have had a whole different story to tell without such a good ending.
The Dowsar enclosure is very strong and stood up to the wind and water without incident. My only complaint is quite minor. The front edge of the bimini canvas forms a flap that covers the zipper that joins the bimini and the connector. The wind was so strong that this flap was blown back exposing the zipper. Over time we got a few drips in the cockpit where the water made it's way through the zipper. I think I could easily fix the issue with a couple well placed chunks of velcro that would keep the flap tight against the connector.
We did have water that made it's way under the dodger and ran back into the cockpit along the companionway sides and down onto the seats. This caused the cheap macgregor open cell foam cockpit cushions to get wet. All in all though I couldn't have been happier with the enclosures performance. We had the companionway hatch open the whole way across and didn't get any water down below.
I don't think any sail would have helped. The main was down and inside it's sail cover and the genoa was furled. Just with these and the enclosure we had more than enough exposed windage. I had the centerboard down and one rudder down and had to counter the tendancy of the boat to round up a bit with the steering. In hindsight perhaps I should have tried to raise the centerboard some but this would have been hard with all the pressure on it. Maybe a bit of headsail would have balanced things better.
We did have to go down wind on the way north in Port Orchard to the Agate Pass bridge. This is always a harder course to steer. The waves weren't as big but still wouldn't handle more that 6-7 knots. In this and a couple of other heavy weather experiences I have had I've never been worried about dunking the engine. The aft end of the X floats high and lifts easily. I have however had the opposite happen where the lift going over a wave combined with the heel has pulled the prop clear of the water.
What's interesting is most people would classify Puget Sound, and particularly Lake Washington as "Protected Waters". We weren't out in the Pacific here. Given a good blow and 5-10 miles of open fetch any body of water can become really rough. In a way these were harder conditions to deal with than ocean ones. Because the waves were purely wind driven they were tightly packed where things often are more spread out in the ocean.
The good news is this was about as rough as it can get around here and the MacGregor was more than up to seeing us through it safely and comfortably.
Frank,
The 12" prop on the Tohatsu 50hp was more than able to handle the situation. It had no tendancy to stall climbing a wave even when we were slowed to 4 knots in the lake. I agree that using a smaller engine would be folly and you can always slow down a bigger one. As we were crossing a few times I thought about what would happen if the Tohatsu died and I had to switch to my 6hp backup. I think I would have had a whole different story to tell without such a good ending.
Duane those conditions are extreme for southern cal. I was generalizing 4-5 foot seas with light chop as rough, although I realize that's a walk in the park for some of you.
I disagree about the differance a bigger motor has-- I've had both the 50 tldi and now the 90tldi. The 90 gives much more control of a ballasted/loaded down x, allowing quicker response when negotiating rougher conditions, which allows me to go faster. I'm talking night and day.
The MASS of the boat seemed to me to be the biggest problem with the smaller motor when I motored in swell/chop. In the conditions you describe I'm sure 6 knots migh be the most comfortable speed, but the feeling of CONTROL a bigger motor gives might add a knot or two.
The bigger forward ballast tank of the later x models (mine's a 2002) plus gas/gear down low and 80 pound maxxon on deck help drive this heavier config. tighter to the waterline.
BTW, have you had any trouble maintaining your dink's air pressure? Mine seems to soften up following day even after inflating in night's less expansive air.
Rolf
I disagree about the differance a bigger motor has-- I've had both the 50 tldi and now the 90tldi. The 90 gives much more control of a ballasted/loaded down x, allowing quicker response when negotiating rougher conditions, which allows me to go faster. I'm talking night and day.
The MASS of the boat seemed to me to be the biggest problem with the smaller motor when I motored in swell/chop. In the conditions you describe I'm sure 6 knots migh be the most comfortable speed, but the feeling of CONTROL a bigger motor gives might add a knot or two.
The bigger forward ballast tank of the later x models (mine's a 2002) plus gas/gear down low and 80 pound maxxon on deck help drive this heavier config. tighter to the waterline.
BTW, have you had any trouble maintaining your dink's air pressure? Mine seems to soften up following day even after inflating in night's less expansive air.
Rolf