Plant Shuttered, Doors Closed.

[dlandersson]

I agree for different reasons.

"Tattoo will not preserve the MAC in it's affordable configuration that we know now." I think there will be change because (and we're already seeing some of that) a new owner (like a new boat owner) WILL want to make changes. The new owners did not build the business from the ground up, so change is a'commin.

With the best intentions in the world, they won't be able to help themselves.

[kmclemore]

I have a few comments on this situation.

First, we need to calculate in the cost of fuel into this discussion. As fuel prices rise (and they will) two things will happen - first, only the rich will be able to afford gassing up a large powered boat which is, essentially (compared to a car) a monstrous 'gas hog'. That being said, folks - rich and poor - will never cease wanting to get out onto the water and have fun, either... it's in our nature. So, I see a gradual increase in the sales of non-fuel or limited-fuel boats of all shapes and sizes - sailboats, kayaks, sailboards, canoes, etc. - for all classes of people (indeed, we're seeing that already with kayaks, which 10 years ago were pretty rare and are now ubiquitous). In this regard, the Mac classifies as a sailboat where you don't HAVE to run the motor if you don't want to, and as such is the perfect transitional boat during this period and indeed may survive even in high-fuel-cost times because of it's ability to be a 'hybrid' - i.e. using sail and motor simultaneously and hence operate more fuel efficiently than a conventional fuel powered vessel.

As to the affordability, yes, the 26-foot boat has gone up in price and will continue to do so. That increase is really just down to inflation, cost of materials (did someone say "war on coal"?), cost of labor and regulatory fees. This is why I think Tattoo's idea of a smaller (read: lower cost) boat makes a lot of sense. It preserves a ability to obtain an entry-point power-sailing boat at about what the Mac 26M cost, albeit a bit shorter, for young families... you can still sleep plenty of folks on it and have a nice time with a family of 4 (the target market). Keeping the large boat makes sense, too, as it offers a 'step up' for families that have become more affluent.

I think the market for Macs and Tattoo's will be out there for a great while to come, and as I say, it may even grow a fair bit as petrol goes up in price.

I do think it would be to the advantage of the folks at Tattoo to do some analysis, publication and promotion regarding the cost-benefits of motor-sailing (sail up, motor on) and to begin touting the 'hybrid' nature of their product - and use that word, "HYBRID", since it is now chock-full of recognized, intrinsic and tangible value in the consumer's mind by virtue of its use in the automobile trade. Indeed, I think they should drop the 'powersailor' moniker altogether (with rising fuel costs, the word "power" just equals "$$$$" in the consumer's mind) and just call it Tattoo's offering of "A New Hybrid Watercraft". They could show that using sail and motor in combination gives a significant (xx%) reduction in motoring costs, better MPG, increased miles-per-tank, less impact to the environment, etc., while still offering better overall performance (time to destination) than by using sail alone.

(BTW, Tattoo folks, I'm available as a marketing consultant. )

[Québec 1]

Plus you will be able to tow your 22footer with a regular car with a regular motor.

[BOAT]

Roger said in an interview back in the 80's:

"We are about due for some type of technical break through," he explained. "Something radical, cosmic weight reduction and maintenance reduction."

It's no doubt that making improvements seem to have been just as important to Roger as making money. Roger predicted a lot of the die off of the boat industry because of the credit problems of the 80's. He seems to be very well in tune with economics.

As for the boat itself, I have watched the evolution of them for 40 years. I sailed against the Venture when I was a kid in the Aquarius 23 and 21, (considered to be a superior boat), which boat survived?
I thought the X was the last word on trailer-able boats. Price, versatility, it had it all. There was no competition, there was no other alternative!

So WHY would Roger then come out with the M???

I could see it was a further evolution to get every last bit of performance and value out of a trailerable power/sailboat. But, WHY?: "what profit was there for Roger to improve the X boat??" He had NO competition at that point. To me, it seemed that there must have been more to it than just chasing profit. And Costa Mesa was the capital of fiberglass boat building in 1980 which was a new thing in 1960 when Roger really started the whole industry! Why did he stay when all other sold out and left? I know staying in Cali was lowering profits too, it MUST have.

Who knows WHY Roger does what Roger does. All I know is that he is one really smart guy who probably knows more about the fiberglass sailboat industry than any other person on the planet. And if Roger is giving up on fiberglass, you can bet your dollar that fiberglass is not the future.

I think his quote of the 1980's might well be true.

As for the subject at hand and our boats: I think by the time we get to the M boat, to me we are seeing about as good as fiberglass can get. I really think the M is the end of the road. That next "big step" might be the new materials Roger is using on the 70 footer, but I think for fiberglass - this is a good as it gets.

As Roger said himself with the Dawn of the 'M':

"All the years, work, training, design, testing, and experience gained over 30 years of boat building went into the design and creation of this ONE BOAT".

I really think the M is the pinnacle of what a trailer-able motor sailor will ever be for less than 30 grand. It's the biggest statement of affordable sailing brought to the level of the average man that anyone has ever achieved. (In fiberglass that is).

If anyone is ever going to repeat that extraordinary achievement I seriously doubt it will ever be done in fiberglass. Roger has taken that material as far as it will ever go. The next breakthrough will not come from a naval architect, but more likely a materials engineer, (or maybe even Roger himself!).

Until that happens, your MAC is about as good as it's gonna get. ("Extinct" or otherwise).

[NiceAft]

I really think the M is the pinnacle of what a trailer-able motor sailor will ever be for less than 30 grand.

I don't know where you figured $30,000. Only if you buy used can you be guaranteed of that low a price. If you purchase new, you're not going anywhere without a motor. Unless you put a dinky dingy motor on it, you're going to pay a good $10,000 for a motor. Add an anchor, chain, and rode, $30,000 is a dream. I forgot taxes

As to marketing a sailboat with a powerful motor as a hybrid, I don't think people care. Cars in the U.S. are considered by most as a necessity. Boats, not so. When it comes to cars, people are paying attention to gas mileage because of the economy. At the first sign of economic recovery, hybrid schmybrid, SPEED BABY! That's what will matter, well, that and sex appeal . When it comes to boats, a boat manufacturer will market to the dream of a lifestyle. That is what people are looking at when they purchase a boat, the lifestyle they imagine themselves living. I get weak knee'd just thinking about it

The dock where I slip Nice Aft, there are 38 slips. There are maybe four or five sailboats. All the rest are power boats. When the Admiral and I go for a sail, we see the owners of the power boats all sitting on the dock drinking and talking. Day in. Day out. They are there when we pull out of the slip, and they are there when we return. Not going anywhere, just talk, talk, talk. They don't go anywhere because it's too darn expensive. That cost did not stop them from purchasing their boats. Being able to afford to purchase the boat is all that matters. Whether you can afford to operate it does not enter the equation. It should, but that is not what people are thinking when they look for a boat, and the builders know it. Sell the dream, not the pocket book. Sorry Kevin, but I don't think you can expect a call any time soon.

Advertise one of those new sailboats being pulled by a Prius, launched, and then pulling a water skier. Now you've got something! Va va va boom


Ray

[BOAT]

Advertise one of those new sailboats being pulled by a Prius, launched, and then pulling a water skier. Now you've got something! Va va va boom

I think that's the whole point of the new 22 foot boat. Your final sentence sort of summed it all up.

As for the price, I paid 30 for boat before taxes, and it came with a 60HP motor, brand new from the factory. The 22 foot boat will probably also be around the same price. That's how they are going to make profit - smaller boat, same price, and like you said - that's what they want: smaller boat. You will get LESS for your money.

None of this discussed reveals any kind of an improvement to the MACM boat. Like I said - if it's on a trailer and made of fiberglass - the M is about a good as it will get.

[Russ]

I do think it would be to the advantage of the folks at Tattoo to do some analysis, publication and promotion regarding the cost-benefits of motor-sailing (sail up, motor on) and to begin touting the 'hybrid' nature of their product - and use that word, "HYBRID", since it is now chock-full of recognized, intrinsic and tangible value in the consumer's mind by virtue of its use in the automobile trade. Indeed, I think they should drop the 'powersailor' moniker altogether (with rising fuel costs, the word "power" just equals "$$$$" in the consumer's mind) and just call it Tattoo's offering of "A New Hybrid Watercraft". They could show that using sail and motor in combination gives a significant (xx%) reduction in motoring costs, better MPG, increased miles-per-tank, less impact to the environment, etc., while still offering better overall performance (time to destination) than by using sail alone.

(BTW, Tattoo folks, I'm available as a marketing consultant. )

Excellent! I agree with your marketing. Roger made a niche boat that fit well and was very successful, but he was horrible, just horrible at marketing. The factory web site is a perfect example, written in Frontpage 98. It took him years to figure out that a marketing DVD isn't necessary in the Youtube era. Fortunately the demand exceed the limited production of 1 boat per day. He was the only builder in this niche.

The Tattoo brand has the opportunity to break free and create an entirely new image and higher production in Florida. I agree with using the name hybrid in the boat. A recent survey of Prius owners showed that for a majority of the owners surveyed, the purchase of a hybrid is not motivated by fuel-saving concerns. The real incentive is one’s own image as a responsible green citizen of the world.
Hunter stepped into the green marketing arena with the 27e
http://www.sailmagazine.com/sailboat-reviews/hunter-27e
Tattoo yachts can emerge with a fresh, new, green image. Marketing is about image, not product.

[Russ]

The dock where I slip Nice Aft, there are 38 slips. There are maybe four or five sailboats. All the rest are power boats. When the Admiral and I go for a sail, we see the owners of the power boats all sitting on the dock drinking and talking. Day in. Day out. They are there when we pull out of the slip, and they are there when we return. Not going anywhere, just talk, talk, talk. They don't go anywhere because it's too darn expensive.

I disagree. For some, the cost of fuel is a concern, but if you can afford a $200k boat, another $5k for the slip, what's another thousand to fill her up?
I do see the same behavior at marinas. I owned a powerboat and honestly, after a while there is no fun in them. That's why they sit at the dock, it's a social thing. Sailors are another breed. They actually sail their boats.

[RobertB]

Sailors are another breed. They actually sail their boats.

Or at least we feel less guilty when we are motoring around because we could sail

[dlandersson]

I disagree with your disagreeing. While we have LOTS of sailboats, the big powerboats hardly ever seem to go anywhere. And the few times they do, they go out a half mile, then sit for a bit, then come in. And often it's the kids/grandkids that just hang out on the boat in the slip.

I think there's a perception difference between monthly payments to the bank (like a mortgage) and out-of-pocket expenses (like gas).

The dock where I slip Nice Aft, there are 38 slips. There are maybe four or five sailboats. All the rest are power boats. When the Admiral and I go for a sail, we see the owners of the power boats all sitting on the dock drinking and talking. Day in. Day out. They are there when we pull out of the slip, and they are there when we return. Not going anywhere, just talk, talk, talk. They don't go anywhere because it's too darn expensive.

I disagree. For some, the cost of fuel is a concern, but if you can afford a $200k boat, another $5k for the slip, what's another thousand to fill her up?
I do see the same behavior at marinas. I owned a powerboat and honestly, after a while there is no fun in them. That's why they sit at the dock, it's a social thing. Sailors are another breed. They actually sail their boats.

[BOAT]

Lots of very good comments here - that Hunter 27e is such a very nice boat! I think it's a good deal even at 70 grand. Very nice boat - but of course, it cannot do most any of the things the MAC can do - but you sure will look good at the yacht club! (I like Hunters). Even if I made 600 grand a year I would still have a hard time justifying a traditional boat - (green or otherwise).

The green marketing will indeed work with the new younger crowd but I'm not sure the MAC26 is a "green" alternative - you give up too much sailing performance with the plane-ing hull on a MAC to make the little 6MPH electric motor worth giving up a real sailing hull. Electric is very slow (submarine slow) so a plane-ing hull is not required. Roger said back in the late 80's after the boating industry crash of 1980 that the new market in 90's through the new century would be OLDER and retired people who could afford the boat and get the credit. Thus - the M boat instead of a smaller boat. He was right - What is Roger's prediction for the future now?? Who knows - but the fact that he is giving up is some indication of what he thinks.

Cost is interesting - I spent 6 grand to have a driveway poured on the side of my house for 'boat'. My big cabin cruiser friends said I was already spending too much on such a cheap little boat.

Really?

The slip fees are 600 a month here for a 26 footer - that's $7200 a year to park your boat. Is my $6000 driveway gonna pay for itself over and over again? (I think, Yes). But my naysayer friends are power boaters, what do they know anyway? They throw money away like its newspaper. They burn it to make coffee. All my sailor friends here have slips because all the boats here are BIG! They tell me they would love to have free parking, but they are afraid of (and listen to this very carefully because it's the number one reason why some sailors DON'T buy a MAC), they are afraid of the big bad ocean in a MAC - they want REAL ballast and low freeboard and all the 'stuff' that makes you feel safe in the ocean.

I understand their position.

Russ got it right - those power boat people can afford to do anything even if it's the stupid thing. Those big sailboat people are just not ready to take a "Clorox bottle" out to sea, and I understand.

That pretty much sums up the sailboat market today and explains Hunter's recent growth.

I really think our type of sailing may be going away - I noticed that more and more launch ramps out here are being moved inland under bridges where land is cheaper. It's getting harder to find a ramp that is "sailboat friendly".

The market needs a smaller boat with a shorter mast that can be towed by a "Prius" as the guy said and can also go very fast under power so working people can do it all on a weekend. THAT - is what the Tattoo brand will be all about in my opinion.

Things they are a changing.

[Gypsy Life]

I completely agree . The big boats sit in their slips day after day , while the little boats go out . in this day of 'Look At Me' its more important to be able to say "I Own a Sea Ray" than to say "We are out every weekend "

Other disturbing trends we have seen is that beds on cruisers are getting smaller . Its as if the designers are saying nobody is going to sleep in this bed anyway , why take up space with it ?

Yet another trend is bigger and bigger engines . Remember when a pontoon boat came standard with a 35 hp outboard , and you could upgrade to a 50hp ?
Now-a-days you never see anything less than 90hp on a pontoon boat . Same with cruisers they used to have 4 cylinder motors . The Volvo engine and the GM 3ltr were very popular engines , years ago . Then it was V6s , then big V8s .

We chose a because we retired on a shoestring . We wanted an efficient cruiser , and they don't get much more efficient than a Mac ! Or more comfortable for the price you pay .

[Crikey]

We chose a because we retired on a shoestring . We wanted an efficient cruiser , and they don't get much more efficient than a Mac ! Or more comfortable for the price you pay .

Amen to that brother!

[BOAT]

Yup, Someone told me about the mystery of the shrinking berths in all the new boats - it's just like you said - younger crowd and they don't do a lot of extended travel like us older folk do. Us older folk are FATTER too, and want a big berth.

Today's high paid yuppies are usually wage earners where they must show up at a job every day - they make good money, but they can't just take off from work anytime they want like the older small business owner can. I'm amazed at how many people I have met who own MACs that are also small business owners. (Contractors, Software Designers, Pilots and Engineers of all kinds, fabricators, Lot's of "Entrepreneur" types).

These kinds of people are usually good with their hands AND their brains.

Let's just say I have not run into any dentists or lawyers yet. (I'm sure they are out there, I just don't see them on MACs).

The Beechcraft Bonanza is a good example of a unique design that was better but more dangerous if you did not manage it's weaknesses - it had a tail that would fold up flat if you tried to pull too many g's on a dive, but MAN was that tail efficient. The MAC is like that - it has really special qualities but you need to accommodate it's weaknesses - some can't do that. They used to call the Beechcraft Bonanza the "Dentist Killer". That was a plane for pilots only.

[NiceAft]

Some disagreed with me and some disagreed with the disagreers. That's a fine example of the 3SW rule. Some Will. Some Won't. So What!

We have Mac's. We use them. Power to us