GPS / Sounder Deal

[Bobby T.-26X #4767]

i'm waiting for you guys to tell me how to do it.
BTW...Boaters World sent me a Navionics compact flash card instead of the required SD card.
they made the mistake but couldn't fix it.
so i had to go thru Navionics to get a replacement. was a hassle, but only cost me $5. and now i've got 2 "Fish n Chips" cards (both CF and SD). guess i'll sell the CF on Ebay...

[Captain Steve]

[quote="Duane Dunn, Allegro"]More Info, I received my NDC-4 cable today (It only took almost 2 months to get here as it was on backorder.) Opened it up, and was confused. I expected that it would insert between one of the cables and the unit. Not so. I also guessed that the NMEA 183 signals were on one of the wires in the power/sonar plug. That's not correct either. No wonder all my experimenting with jumpers in that plug couldn't find a combination that worked.

The cable goes on the one labeled "Accessory Socket" on page 28 of the manual. This is the outlet already in use by the speed through water sensor. This sensor must send NMEA 183 data to the unit. So now the trick is to open that cable up and sort out the wires.

If we're lucky it will have a orange and a black wire since orange is suppose to be NMEA receive. There may even be a yellow in there which is NMEA send. If that's the case I don't really need the NDC-4 cable, I should be able to just hook up the autopilot to yellow NMEA send and the black ground. If there's no yellow in the speed sensor cable, I guess I'll plug in the NDC-4 cable and then hook up the Speed sensor to the orange and black, then connect the autopilot to the yellow and black. Either way it looks like a little soldering will be needed.

I'll trace out the colors to the pins and post a picture here. The plug has 4 female pins but there are only 3 wires on the other end, so one is not used.[/quote]

Did the wiring color scheme work out like you figured???

[Tahoe Jack]

We scored one of these Eagle units as well. For others info, we chose the RAM MB-8 mount (heavy duty). Our antenna puck is mounted with Velcro on the starboard aft gunnel. Since all components are easily removeable, we added an LEI cigarette lighter power cable (99-11) and a spare RAM ball (202U). The latter will be mounted on a fabricated base sized to fit the cup holder on our SUV. The OEM cable tail on the antenna works well for dash placement. Getting good signal and performance in the SUV. Still refining the cup holder base component. We will post a related mod as this evolves. We too are awaiting the resolution of the NMEA matter. The unit performed well on the Mac during our recent week on Lake Powell on the Colorado River using the OEM map. Haven't selected final supplemental map data other than their 'western lakes' which to my surprise, excluded Powell. Jack

[Tahoe Jack]

This past weekend we took time to post the promised mod for those folks having the Eagle SeaChamp unit and others considering this and similar Chart Plotter units. Our new mod post shows both the version on the boat as well as our SUV dual use. This thread has evolved toward a mod posting, but since it started here, I am posting to it. Check out the mods if interested. Maybe Steve, Duane, or others can share their versions as well. Sure like the results. Jack

[Shane]

Wondering if everyone is still just as satisfied with these units now? Boaters World is now doing them at $479. There is one reviewer that says it doesn't come with an antenna, but that's not the impression I got from others here. As I understand it, a Nav card and connector cable (forget the number right now) if you want to tie into DSC VHF were extras, but that was it. BTW, how much was that cable anyway?

I've been waiting to outfit electronics (VHF & GPS) until I sold the extra car in our driveway; its now gone so I'm making my list.

I looked at Eagle's website, and I don't see anything there that makes the newest models any better than the lower priced 2000.

Anyways, any (more) insights on this would be appreciated. I've gotten a lot out of following this thread.

Regards,
Shane

[Frank C]

Not sure about this, but I think the main change is that newer models are using the NMEA-2OOO networking system. They might also be using a more recent GPS chip, sensing 12 sats?

The new network is pretty cool. Everything connects to a single style of cable & connector, all transducers, even the antenna. (Can't say if the radio would understand NMEA-2000 of cable though.) You can also attach a fuel flow sending unit, but I'm not sure if it's compatible with outboards. Most fuel flow units want to read higher rates of flow, like with V-8 motors.

[beene]

I just bought one from Boatingworld, they charged me duty when they should not have, customs morons scratched the face of the unit as they tore through every box, and NO IT DOES NOT COME WITH THE GPS ANTENNA like it did earlier this year, thus the price difference. I have been calling all over the place trying to find the antenna, and no I do not want to buy it from Boatingworld….do to my last experience. The interesting thing I have found is that local dealers sell the 2000c DF but when you ask them about the antenna they go blank??? It is a GPS chartplotter is it not????? Well…….has no one asked about buying the antenna to use that functionality before????? Blank looks, deer in the headlights stuff…. After waiting quite a while, they return to say they can get me one for…..just like Dr Evil ( one millllllllllllion dollars )! So I am still looking. I hope to find one at the TO boat show coming up. Wish me luck.

[Frank C]

I just bought one from Boatingworld, they charged me duty when they should not have, customs morons scratched the face of the unit as they tore through every box, and NO IT DOES NOT COME WITH THE GPS ANTENNA like it did earlier this year, thus the price difference ...

Eagle is a Lowrance brand name. Both Eagle and Lowrance offer the same display units in two flavors, with or without the "GPS module," their marketing phrase for the antenna puck. The display unit is just a little computer that can read signals and display graphics from both the depth transducers &/or from the GPS antenna. Earlier this year I chose the Lowrance LMS-332 model (Plotter/sounder w/5" display). I felt the case for 7" display was too large for my application. Besides that, the newer networking technology seemed a good choice.

During my web-shopping I found one offered as the LMS-332 "Sounder" at only $499, rather than the more standard, widespread $699 pricing. It clearly said it was depth finder only, and upgradeable to GPS plotter. Since I already had a GPS antenna from my older LMS-160 I figured I could use the older antenna and save 200 bucks, so I went ahead and ordered the cheaper unit from Cabela's - "satisfaction guaranteed" or full refund. Turns out the older antenna doesn't use the new cabling scheme - so I had to return it.

More web-shopping uncovered the Lowrance Plotter/sounder model (still called LMS-332) from a small internet retailer for $100 less than the big boys charge. It's the fully equipped, 5" display LMS-332 with depth finder plus GPS plotter (basically just an antenna) for only $589.

I noticed that BoatersWorld is closing-out the Eagle 2000 Seachamps on their eBay store at $499, but that's without GPS. Eagle's website shows the GPS Module (basically an antenna puck) under the Accessories page for $228 ... bummer! Check back on the ad you used for the purchase. If it said anything about GPS, you should be able to force them to reverse the sale.
Caveat Emptor~!

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

My unit from Boaters World included the GPS sending antenna. Installed, used on our last end of summer big trip, worked great.

The lower priced closeout must be a different model than what I got. Buyer beware, do your research.

I've had nothing but good luck with Boaters World, but then I'm in the US. Their local stores are always lower priced than West Marine, but their selection is not as good.

The extra cable from LEI extras is needed to get NMEA output/input. It uses the same plug on the unit as the depth transducer. I'm sure that through some creative soldering I can get both working but I just never have had the time yet to go out in the backyard and sort out the needed connections.

I'll get to it sometime before spring.

[Frank C]

Just discovered another advantage to Lowrance's new networking approach. Lowrance units with your larger 7-inch diag display, (not my 5" display) and using the new NMEA-2000 networking bus, can read and display Lowrance's radar ... new radomes for 24-mile, 2kw, $1,099 at Boatersworld. This new NMEA network cabling scheme is part of the reason for blow-out prices on those prior-tech displays.

NMEA-2000 completely invalidates Garmin's "black box" sales philosophy, adding functions by adding another computer box!


(that "black box" sales philosophy has always seemed such a crock ... )


P.S. I don't HAVE a radar, and it wouldn't work with my 5" display anyhow. Also, radar is an electricity hog, so one might want a backup generator. But Lowrance's approach is a real benefit for anyone where radar IS a safety issue ... like the guys in Pacific NW. You can outfit the boat with full safety suite at a much lower investment than with other electronics, and using fewer boxes and displays.

[eric3a]

..

[Shane]

Thanks everyone for your advice & input. My spare time the last few days has gone in to reviewing for tonights power squadron exam (passed -yeah ), so this gives me lots to go on. For now, that BW deal doesn't seem nearly the deal it was a few months ago (with GPS Puck), but this stuff is all new to me, so I appreciate all experiences you're all offering. I don't see myself going beyond the VHF/GPS connectivity, so while the NMEA 2000 (protocol?) may be cool, I don't see needing any more interface than the radio.

I'll keep plugging away and I'm sure I'll find more questions to ask soon.

Actually, here's the first one. I noticed the new Eagle units are using a smaller (5"?) vertically oriented screen, rather than 7" horizontally orientation of the 2000. I think I would like the 'feel' of the paper chart horizontal layout and also thought it would make for a more functional split screen mode over the vertical. What have others found preferrable in your experiences?

Regards,
Shane

[Captain Steve]

Check out the boatersworld site for this item...I posted a review!!

[Moe]

Just discovered another advantage to Lowrance's new networking approach. Lowrance units with your larger 7-inch diag display, (not my 5" display) and using the new NMEA-2000 networking bus, can read and display Lowrance's radar ... new radomes for 24-mile, 2kw, $1,099 at Boatersworld. This new NMEA network cabling scheme is part of the reason for blow-out prices on those prior-tech displays.

NMEA-2000 completely invalidates Garmin's "black box" sales philosophy, adding functions by adding another computer box!


(that "black box" sales philosophy has always seemed such a crock ... )

Frank, I know you love to bash Garmin, but I don't see how this is operationally any different than the Garmin network, Raymarine's SeaTalk hs, or Furuno's NavNet. They all start out with a display, add an integrated GPS receiver/antenna, add a fishfinder, and add an integrated radar receiver/antenna. What are you talking about, "black box?"

--
Moe

[Frank C]

Moe .... Buyer beware.

The difference is a choice between expensive, proprietary networks (brands you've linked) versus an industry-standard open interface network. Proprietary schemes limit users' ability to interconnect equipment from different manufacturers, a marketing ploy at which Garmin excels. NMEA2000 defines a multi-master, multi-talker, multi-listener single network trunk from bow to stern, an ultra-low-power data & cable scheme. As you're well aware, that's just geek-speak to mystify a user friendly way to interconnect equipment from all manufacturers ... how wonderfully appropriate to the Macgregor mantra, doesn't it seem??



Proprietary systems are fine for users who want to concentrate an entire budget with one provider, but better be sure it's a very big budget. Garmin makes decent equipment, but it's very costly. Until recently you had to buy their maps seperately from the GPS ... and the sounder added yet another blackbox cost increment. And having spent that much higher budget, you still ended up with less display size, display quality or resolution.

Lowrance is driving down costs in marine electronics just like Roger has in trailerable sailing. Garmin has now been forced to include software & sounder in their latest midrange marine plotters at no added cost, which destroys their cradle to grave, nickel-n-dime marketing. But Garmin's network remains proprietary as well as their larger plotters (sans sounder). That means they get another few years to continue selling blackboxes, bad for consumers, good for the stockholders.

Lowrance's all-inclusive market approach means they have immediately adopted NMEA2000 interconnectivity for their entire line. (Unfortunately, this requires me to replace all my transducer cabling in the boat, substituting the NMEA2 network cables - carrying both power & data - but it's the last time.) As market forces begin to impose adherence to the open networking standard, the future Garmin GPS will seamlessly connect to a Furuno radar, a Lowrance depth transducer, a Standard Horizon radio and a Suxuki throttle & engine management system ... all using industry-standard network connectors to a single data-power trunk. Then, all data can be repeated to displays in both cockpit and cabin. Marine electronics are soon to undergo the paradigm shift that Microsoft & IBM imposed in the PC industry around 1992. Apple and Sun are the lone holdouts from open standards ... the PC is much less costly due to the competition of open standards.

This can't happen any too soon. Maps (essentially in the public domain) are now coming bundled with the dedicated plotters to display them ... Duh - it's about time! Inconnectivity is next to become a market mandate. Meanwhile, investing in equipment that uses proprietary networks ... it just means you're destined to replace it in the future, rather than interconnect it.