MacGregorSailors.com

K9Kampers wrote:

BOAT wrote:So clear me up if I am wrong here - is the tattoo 22 the only trailerable cabin sailboat in production in the US now??

Has it got to this?

West Wight Potter, Sanibel 18, Voyager 20, Com PAC, Precision...

Hmmmm . . .tell me k9 . . are all these surviving boat manufacturers your referring to all building boats LESS than 25 feet in length?

Yes.

International Marine
Com-Pac Yatchs
Precision Boat Works

Anyone see a trend here on who is surviving the trailerable sailboat market and who is not based on size?

Y'know, something she apparently said, per the quote from the letter contents, was that the tooling was worn out. That's not a small thing. That is, essentially, how the boat becomes what it is. All of this isn't done freehand with garage power tools and crescent wrenches... There are a bunch of tools and dies and jigs and guides that are used for making each part, cutting out shapes, drilling holes, setting things up to glue, etc. You can only build so many boats before that stuff wears out and has to be replaced. As the tooling wears, quality starts to get compromised, fit-and-finish suffers, and it takes more effort to correct the problems before the boat can roll off the floor finished. And as tools age, the tooling manufacturers go out of business, upgrade to new models, and obsolete things that were essential parts of the build process. In order for new tooling to be made, completely new jig designs would have to be developed to accommodate the new tools, etc. etc. It is very possible that the potential expense of updating all of the tooling to continue production for the long term did not justify the return. The 22 was designed and tooling built in more recent years so it will be viable for the next ten years or so, just as the 26 was, and then the time will come to determine how to proceed with that design based on regulation changes, technology upgrades, market conditions, levels of radiation in the ocean, etc.

Of interest would be the "retiring" of the hull molds. It is my understanding from posts and comments that the molds for all the other boats have been destroyed. I suspect these will go soon too, if there is no future plan for the same hull shape. A newer upgraded design, or one based on epoxy, for example, would need new molds anyway.

Bittersweet.

VizWiz I agree. The 26 class sales are obviously in decline. That said they chose to abandon retooling some of the degraded 26 component molds and instead elected to build from scratch new 22 molds. That speaks to me the best selling 26 trailer sailor is history. Perhaps until redesigned or indefinitely. That is a lot of 'Brand' to abandon and I don't mean that as a criticism just an observation based on personal business experience. Perhaps the entry level new sailor market has constricted to under 26ft. Most members here seem to gravitate to a larger boat. I have seen many posts for a 28. Hobbie built a 33 with 8ft beam that could be trailered if it had a retractable keel like the Seaward. Time will tell. Again I wish Tattoo the very best. No matter their decision I hope they thrive for all of us. They are the last true affordable trailer sailor. They (Macgregor)have been positioned successfully at the bottom of the price spectrum for many decades. We all know that consumer class is disappearing.

K9Kampers wrote:I had been wondering about the European market as a catalyst for the T22 concept. Since the Sharp's have done so much business over there, the 22 could be designed for that demographic. Doesn't the Euro auto market cater less to big trucks & SUVs than vs the US?

And consider the ease of entry to a new boat that doesn't suggest considering the upgrade to a larger tow vehicle. Of course we Americans always justify the bigger upgrades, especially looking at the RV lifestyle / market.

I don't think the was designed with the European market in mind. The auto market over here is indeed targeted at smaller vehicles, but boat owners wanting to tow their boats across the Alps are not the typical European car buyers. The typical European car will - by far - be insufficient for towing a at any serious distance.

1st Sail wrote: Hobbie built a 33 with 8ft beam that could be trailered if it had a retractable keel like the Seaward. (Macgregor)have been positioned successfully at the bottom of the price spectrum for many decades. We all know that consumer class is disappearing.

Forget about Hobie - they will never go back into building a high volume fiberglass boat because they have no plans of leaving their location here in Oceanside. Hobie changed their entire product line over to the Roto-Molding plastic boats a long time ago (they started the change in the late 90's) because they knew about the VOC laws that were coming - they were prepared. You can't build fiberglass boats in high volume in California anymore. It's not gonna happen here.

Actually, Tattoo, (well, really Roger) is the closest thing your going to find to the future of high volume boat building - Roger had been saying for decades that fiberglass needed to be replaced with a different material - a better material. A material so light and strong that ANY car could tow it. Roger said back in the 90's that whenever they find that material the boat industry may re-surge again.

BOAT wrote:fiberglass needed to be replaced with a different material - a better material. A material so light and strong that ANY car could tow it.

The Mac is in my opinion an ultra light boat. I wouldn't want to sail anything lighter. When you sail a heavy keel boat and then the Mac, you see just how light these boats are. Sure, you could make it out of super light material, but to what end? If it were a race class boat with some form of ballast, that might be cool. But for a cruiser (which I consider the S/D/X/M to be) who would want an ultra light boat.

I can't believe the 26X/M/T market is gone. I could be wrong and I'd love to hear from dealers what their demand is like. We just came out of an economic hole and dollars are starting to flow again. The 26 is the biggest boat I can trailer without special permits and not dropping $150k on a Seaward.

If I knew something about boat building, I would love to buy those molds and build new boats. Modernize the upper deck a bit and you could have a winner. Just stay far away from California.

Hobie changed their entire product line over to the Roto-Molding plastic boats a long time ago

What is Roto-Molding?

I can't believe the 26X/M/T market is gone. I could be wrong and I'd love to hear from dealers what their demand is like. We just came out of an economic hole and dollars are starting to flow again. The 26 is the biggest boat I can trailer without special permits and not dropping $150k on a Seaward.

I tend to agree with you Russ.

The economic slump of the last eight years has got to have taken a bite out of the luxury market, and a boat is definetly a luxury item.

To me, the Mac was targeted for those boat owner "want to be's" who were priced out of any ownership. It may be awhile until that demographic has again built up enough disposable income to make their dreams a reality.

Ray

P.S. When I wrote this, spellcheck changed “dreams” to “drams” A few drams of Islay could help any dreams.

“The Mac is in my opinion an ultra light boat.”

It’s the ballast – the water ballast – the boat can be even lighter with a better material so you can tow it behind a car. Once you get it into the water you can make is as heavy as you want by just adding water – I think Roger has the right idea.

“Just stay far away from California.”

That’s what everyone says but California is still where all the new stuff and innovation comes from. When the new material is discovered I bet 100 bucks it happens here. California is still the place where the smartest people want to live, it’s not the place that factory owners want a factory, they just want to live here.

“What is Roto-Molding?”

It’s a dry soft plastic pellet powder that is put in a rotating mold and turned over and over until the mold creates a boat. The molds are limited in size because they must rotate but they make no fumes because it’s a soft plastic, not a resin. The problem though is that without a hard resin the boats are too soft to make anything really big, so Hobie does little kayaks and catamarans. They are very popular – mastreb has one he walks right to the beach from his house.

“The economic slump of the last eight years has got to have taken a bite out of the luxury market, and a boat is definitely a luxury item.”

Just the opposite: The rich got even richer during the recession and the middle class was the big looser, and they still have not recovered. The latest food stamp numbers make many think that the middle class never will recover from the 2010 recession.
A lot of little people lost their “drams” and it looks like that may be permanent. Even if the economy go back to where it was in 2007 that still means a loss of over 7 years of economic growth – sure, this year we might get back to where we were in 2007, but then it’s another long 10 year climb to get to where we would have been if there was no recession. Face it, we are a good ten years behind.

BOAT wrote:It’s the ballast – the water ballast – the boat can be even lighter with a better material so you can tow it behind a car.

This is true. However, the mass is still light. The Mac X/M gets blown all around in wind. At anchor, she is a fishing bobber. Interesting idea you have, however if you've sailed a solid glass boat (and I know you have) it's a good feeling to pound through a wave with heavy mass. Light boats have a home in the race community. Not so sure cruisers will embrace it. Although, you could get a nice 35' boat under 3,000# on a trailer. Didn't Hobie do this?

California is still the place where the smartest people want to live, it’s not the place that factory owners want a factory, they just want to live here.

That's the issue isn't it? You have a big base of immigrant workers willing to lay fiberglass, but you have legislation that makes it expensive. I don't see big boats being built in the Golden State anytime soon. Laura was smart to setup shop in FL. Hunter moved to FL years ago for similar reasons. State regs drove them out.

It’s a dry soft plastic pellet powder that is put in a rotating mold and turned over and over until the mold creates a boat.

Interesting. Google showed lots of uses for it. As you said, plastic is too soft for large boats. It's perfect for what it's used for, kayaks etc.

Just the opposite: The rich got even richer during the recession and the middle class was the big looser, and they still have not recovered.

True, however there has been recovery.
I bought my boat in 2008 and the marina was a ghost town that summer. Too expensive for people without work. Of course "work" here means construction and ag jobs. Last year, the place was booming. Full of $75k ski boats and $250k RVs parked on shore. Construction is booming too. I got a bid of $1.6mil to build my 4200sf house. Folks got money now.
The Mac, well under $75k is the perfect starter boat. I have to believe there is a market for it. Again, I'd love to hear from Mac/Tat dealers and the demand they are seeing.

--Russ

Boat,

Tossing around a platitude does not make it so. Especially when it's not applicable.

I don't believe the wealthy are who buy Mac's & Tatoo's. I agree with Russ. These are entry boats for boat owner want to be's. I believe it's the middle class that purchases them, and on both coast's they are hurting. When disposable income rises to the point where people feel comfortable, then maybe sales will pick up.

Apparently there is a market in the upper Midwest, but I don't believe that good fortune has spread east and west to where the larger coastliness are.

Ray

To make a NICE 35 foot boat you can tow for the modern market (where most cars are 4 cyl) it can’t be a “Heavy Cruiser” unless you use water ballast – that’s the only way to do it – I’m still stumped at what method you would use to make a “Heavy Cruiser” that can be towed behind a car. What options are really available???

As for California having workers to lay fiberglass they are all moving to other places for a job. The jobs here for factory workers are drying up. There is not much smokestack industry left in California and what is left is moving out. All those jobs are pretty much in LA now – if you’re willing to pick fruit the Central Valley is a place for employment but with the drought and stuff that’s all drying up too. Tulare County California (that’s ground zero for farmworkers in America) is now the poorest county in the United States. That’s a good place to see what has become of the “middle class”. It’s only rich and poor now – NO middle class at all there.

The state regulations are stupid but there is nothing that can be done about it. The same wealthy people that are taking over the state are also the same people that are ramming through all the regulations.

No one is gonna pay 75 grand for a MAC 26M. People with that kind of money are going to opt for something better unless they are dead set on the trailerable option. THAT IS THE KEY – the TRAILER. Take that away and NO ONE would have bought a MAC in the first place.

I would hope for a economic recovery, I really do – but the real question is WHO will recover. That’s what will decide the future of the TRAILERABLE sailboat industry.

NiceAft wrote:Boat,

Tossing around a platitude does not make it so. Especially when it's not applicable.

I don't believe the wealthy are who buy Mac's & Tatoo's. I agree with Russ. These are entry boats for boat owner want to be's. I believe it's the middle class that purchases them, and on both coast's they are hurting. When disposable income rises to the point where people feel comfortable, then maybe sales will pick up.

Apparently there is a market in the upper Midwest, but I don't believe that good fortune has spread east and west to where the larger coastliness are.

Ray

Yeah, that was my point - the rich don't buy MACS - and so far it's only the rich that are recovering. That was sort of my point. Roger is going after the rich and Laura is obviously trying to find a market also. This is all about a post where Tattoo has already announced they have stopped manufacturing the M boat - that fact is a forgone issue. The future? Anything is possible I suppose. I'm just facing the reality of the now.

NiceAft wrote:Apparently there is a market in the upper Midwest, but I don't believe that good fortune has spread east and west to where the larger coastliness are.

Historically, it is the cities and coastal communities that feel a recession first and come out of it last. It's probably a bit early for big ticket disposable income purchases. However, I see a light and the 26, priced at under $40k ready to cruise, is in a good spot.

If Tattoo is ceasing production, there is an opportunity for someone. Buy low, sell high. Better opportunity for a proven hull though.

--Russ