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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:49 am
by beene
Starting to smell something REAL BAD.
I think we are into "legal action" time.
I would include pain and suffering by yourself throughout this entire ordeal.
Beyond time to open up a can IMHO.
Enough is enough.
It is not like you bought this motor 10 years old and off the back of a truck in the parking lot.
Cheeeeesh
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:17 am
by sorcha
Yep ..obviously this is unacceptable...I am going to have to put this all on hold for a few weeks as I am having holidays in Europe until just after easter...River city marine are aware that I am away for a few weeks and we have agreed just to put this on hold until I return. It does make you wonder that whatever revs I had told Bombardier that my motor did .. their response sounds like it would have been 'normal' no matter what it was... Anyway I'm not going to give up on it.
Thanks all for your support.
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:24 am
by sorcha
Just to further clarify what a test wheel is.... It simply is a aluminium wheel that replaces the prop. The idea is that it's a stationary 'in water' test and the test wheel is designed to give an exact amount of resistance or drag against the engine. My engine is meant to rev to 5000 at wide open throttle .. which means it's giving its full 90hp. Each model outboard as a specific test wheel. Essentially it's similar to dyno testing a car engine to check its power output.
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:22 am
by bobmonroe
Sorcha,
BRP is not accepting email.
If you you post your serial# and mod# I will call BRP at
847-689-7090 and tell them that I am watching your case
on the MacGregorSailors.com to see how they resolve this
problem. If they knew how many prospective buyers that
are watching this, it might get their attention. They also have
a snail mail address on their web, that I will send a post card.
I've had very minor problems with my 50.
Bob
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:45 am
by DLT
I've had no problems with my 40.
With that said, though, before this thread I was "sold" on upgrading to a 90 ETEC. But, I'm starting to look at the new Honda 90...
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:14 am
by beene
If it were me DLT, I would go for the Honda either way.
JMHO
Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:37 am
by sorcha
Hi Bob Munroe
I'm holidaying in Europe at the moment ... but will email my kids in Australia and get the serial & model number and then post it on this discussion board.... it may take a couple of days to get the info from the kids ... Thanks for your help
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:14 am
by delevi
I'm really shocked to hear about how BRP is handling this. My 50 has been a real champ but it did overheat on Saturday. Cruising speeed, about 4500 rpm; the alarm sounded and the hot indicator lit up. Saw a bunch of smoke coming out of the engine. Turnd off, tilted up to check if prop had stuff tangled on it. It was fine. Tilted back down, started up, checked water flow... fine. Kept right on going without the alarm sounding again, engine behaving fine. No idea why this happened.
With that said, though, before this thread I was "sold" on upgrading to a 90 ETEC. But, I'm starting to look at the new Honda 90...
If it were me DLT, I would go for the Honda either way.
What about the lack of torque in the Honda 50? Granted a 90 is, well a 90, but maybe not the same 90 as the etec. Anyone know how the Tohatsu 90 stacks up against the etec?
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:28 am
by Bobby T.-26X #4767
delevi wrote: Granted a 90 is, well a 90, but maybe not the same 90 as the etec. Anyone know how the Tohatsu 90 stacks up against the etec?
other than the fact that at the time i purchased my 90 TLDI, the Etec was 20% more expensive and a "new" unproven technology (high pressure injection which runs hotter than Tohatsu), the ETEC is cleaner (3 star vs 2 for Tohatsu) and is said to be smoother.
however, Tohatsu's have always been known for their torque and reliability. with an overpitched 14" x 15 pitch prop, a lightly loaded X will reach 30mph without any problem. i use an 11 pitch and get to 25+ at WOT with two adults and a normal load.
to date with 100 hours i've had no problems (knock on wood), just the lower unit oil changes. however, i probably should now change out the impellor as it's been over 2 years.
Bob T.
"DaBob"
'02X w/ '04 90-TLDI (14" x 11 pitch)
Dinghy Motor: '06 2.5-Suzuki
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:26 am
by Frank C
delevi wrote: Anyone know how the Tohatsu 90 stacks up against the etec?
From my teen and 20-some racing days, we were always looking to improve horsepower by overboring our Chevy or Ford engines. When bore exceeds stroke, it's called an "oversquare" engine, and favors horsepower over torque. (actually, I think it just shifts the the two curves along that engine's RPM range).
In general, an engine produces relatively more torque when its stroke is longer. Torque is especially strong in an "undersquare" design, where the stroke measurement
exceeds the bore. See Wiki quotes if you want better clarity
.
The two-stroke outboards, Tohatsu & ETEC are approximately the same total displacement, but the Tohatsu has a relatively longer stroke, so it should be more "Torquey", even though both are "oversquare."
But the Honda is "undersquare!" The Honda 90 sure looks like a very interesting 4-stroke. It will be interesting to read some of the early reviews by the trade-rags.
Bore ... x ... Stroke ... ~ ... Displacement
86 mm ........ 73 mm ........ 1267 cc Tohatsu 90 .. (oversquare)
91 mm ........ 66 mm ........ 1295 cc ETEC 90 ..... (oversquare)
73 mm ........ 89 mm ........ 1495 cc Honda 90 .... (
undersquare)
Wikipedia wrote:Bore/stroke ratio
Bore/stroke is the most commonly used term, which is mainly used in the USA, Great Britain, Australia and some other countries.
An engine that has wider bore vs. stroke has a bore/stroke value of over 1. For example an engine which has 100 mm (millimeter) bore and 80 mm stroke has a bore/stroke value of: 100 mm / 80 mm = 1.25 .... Such an engine is referred as oversquare or shortstroke engine.
An engine that has shorter bore vs. stroke has a bore/stroke value of under 1. For example an engine which has 90 mm bore and 120 mm stroke has a bore/stroke value of: 90 mm / 120 mm = 0.75 .... This type of engine is called an undersquare or longstroke engine.
An engine that has equal bore and stroke has a bore/stroke value of 1.
For example an engine which has both 95 mm bore and stroke has a bore/stroke value of: 95 mm / 95 mm = 1.00 ..... This type of engine is called a square engine. Usually engines that have a bore/stroke ratio of 0.95 to 1.04 are referred as square engines.
Wikipedia wrote:Undersquare
A piston engine is undersquare or longstroke if its cylinders have a smaller bore (width, diameter) than stroke (length of piston travel). This can be a negative trait, since a longer stroke usually means greater friction, a weaker crankshaft, and a smaller bore means smaller valves which restricts gaseous exchange; however, with the aid of modern technology, these are not the large problems that they used to be. An undersquare engine usually has a lower redline than an oversquare one, but it may generate more low-end torque. In addition, a longstroke or undersquare engine can have a higher compression ratio with the same octane fuel compared to a similar displacement engine with a much shorter stroke ratio. This also equals better fuel economy and somewhat better emissions. An undersquare engine does not overheat as easily as similar oversquare engine. Engines can be modified with a "stroker" crankshaft, which increases an engines stroke from stock, increasing torque.
Undersquare engines are typically shorter in length, but heavier and taller than equivalent oversquare ones, which is one of the reasons why this type of engine is not generally used.
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:34 am
by beene
Hi Frank
My 2005 Merc looks very close to the NEW Honda.
4 Stroke EFI
4 cylinder
RPM 4500-5500
1596cc
Bore 79mm
Stroke 81.4mm
Gear Ratio 2.33:1
Weight 349lbs
My thinking is that this motor will have plenty of torque to help jump the Mac up on a plane with minimal effort, loaded or not.
Any thoughts?
G
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:42 am
by Catigale
Is that the bigfoot version or the standard Beene??
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:47 am
by beene
Well, it uses a 14" prop.
But I don't think there was a BIGFOOT in the 75,90,115 model.
G
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:15 am
by Duane Dunn, Allegro
The whole 'Bigfoot' concept was to take the lower unit that is standard on the 75,90,115 and put it on the 50,60's.
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:51 am
by Frank C
beene wrote:My 2005 Merc looks very close to the NEW Honda.
1596cc ... Bore 79mm ... Stroke 81.4mm
My thinking is that this motor will have plenty of torque to help jump the Mac up on a plane with minimal effort, loaded or not.
I never noticed it before, but the earlier Honda 75 and the Merc Bigfoot were also undersquare designs. I guess the undersquare strategy has been helping the carbureted 4-strokes emulate the inately more torquey 2-strokes. (The Wiki quote describes some of the relative advantages of undersquares.)
Your Mercury 75 is similar to the Suzuki designs, all of which are nearly "Square" designs, with bore and stroke ~ equal. These "square" 4-strokes probably substitute more modern EFI engine management (rather than longer strokes) so they can measure up to traditionally torquey 2-strokers.
Wikipedia wrote:Undersquare (excerpted)
... a longer stroke usually means greater friction, a weaker crankshaft, and a smaller bore means smaller valves which restricts gaseous exchange; however, with the aid of modern technology, these are not the large problems that they used to be. An undersquare engine usually has a lower redline than an oversquare one, but it may generate more low-end torque. In addition, a longstroke or undersquare engine can have a higher compression ratio with the same octane fuel compared to a similar displacement engine with a much shorter stroke ratio ...