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dlandersson wrote:If that's an X, the rudders are on backwards.

It's definitely an X and I shouldn't be surprised in the least that something like this happened with everything else I've discovered.

I'm going to walk away from this little project for a while. I've had it for almost two weeks and I've worked on it every day and every day I've found something new that isn't good and I just think about what else I could have accomplished in those two weeks.

So far it's hit the water twice and we had a good time in it both times, although I learned of my oil leak on the second trip, ha. Anyway, I'm not totally bummed about it, but man, this is the first time I've really picked a lemon and I guess it's eating at me.

I guess typically when I buy a project, I know that going into it and I'm in that mindset that a lot of work is going to need to be done to it, but this was sold as "ready to sail." The PO swears up and down he didn't know any of these things prior to selling it and claims he never even had a chance to raise the sails due to his health issue that came on shortly after buying it. I have to take him at his word and I did negotiate an amazing deal if everything was ok, and still not a bad deal considering what they sell for around here. I'd have to spend another $4k to get even close to what others go for and that's with single axle steel trailers.

I thought I'd done enough research on it to know what to look for but clearly I hadn't which also bugs me. Oh well, it still floats and it's shiny!

It's pretty easy to turn the rudders around. Just remove them (unscrew) and install them so the "L" will face backwards when up and forwards (under the boat) when down.

taylormade wrote:

dlandersson wrote:If that's an X, the rudders are on backwards.

It's definitely an X and I shouldn't be surprised in the least that something like this happened with everything else I've discovered.

I'm going to walk away from this little project for a while. I've had it for almost two weeks and I've worked on it every day and every day I've found something new that isn't good and I just think about what else I could have accomplished in those two weeks.

So far it's hit the water twice and we had a good time in it both times, although I learned of my oil leak on the second trip, ha. Anyway, I'm not totally bummed about it, but man, this is the first time I've really picked a lemon and I guess it's eating at me.

I guess typically when I buy a project, I know that going into it and I'm in that mindset that a lot of work is going to need to be done to it, but this was sold as "ready to sail." The PO swears up and down he didn't know any of these things prior to selling it and claims he never even had a chance to raise the sails due to his health issue that came on shortly after buying it. I have to take him at his word and I did negotiate an amazing deal if everything was ok, and still not a bad deal considering what they sell for around here. I'd have to spend another $4k to get even close to what others go for and that's with single axle steel trailers.

I thought I'd done enough research on it to know what to look for but clearly I hadn't which also bugs me. Oh well, it still floats and it's shiny!

Too much rudder blade in front of the pintle is going to make the boat very twitchy.

Those rudders look about 2/3 the original length, in my book the original length is maybe 4 inches too short on the early models 95, 96 etc.

I have been reading up on rudder design and raher than wider they recommend going deeper as it gets more grip on the water whilst not increasing drag as much as going wider, which shouldnt be an issue as the keel is in front of them and much deeper than the rudders even if you added 4 inches

This is an image of the later version rudder - Note how much longer it is



This is the early version

Taylormade, I am not convinced that those rudders are on backwards. The photo of the original X rudders would suggest that they are, but your rudders are different.

It looks like they have a lot of trailing edge, as they are now mounted on your boat. If you turned them around you would have a LOT of leading edge, lots more than the original X rudders. I am not sure of course, but I suspect that turning them around is going to make things worse. I think that Sailboatmike is saying the same thing as I am...he says twitchy, and I just envision that if you turn the rudders around that huge leading edge is going to bite into the water and throw the wheel over to one side or the other.

It's just a feeling. I am NOT what you call an "expert".

Starscream wrote:
Taylormade, I am not convinced that those rudders are on backwards. The photo of the original X rudders would suggest that they are, but your rudders are different.

I agree with Starcream. They are indeed different, so they may not backwards at all. Their shape suggest an airplane's wing/airfoil and the leading edge should be thicker--as it actually is.

They might indeed be more efficient, despite their stubbiness. I am not a specialist either, but it seems to me very likely that a wider rudder (and yours are indeed wider) will still offer enough leverage for the boat to turn.

Let's not forget that they are two, rudder than one... that may well be all you need

The advantage of such stubby rudders would be apparent when you put the boat on the trailer. We others with regular rudders typically use only one (loosely tied) and the centerboard half way down to get a modicum of control. You, with your short-barrelled stubs, may keep both down without any fear of hitting the bottom and I would be willing to bet that you'd have better control

Don't simply assume that you have a lemon

That's what I was referring to as 'balanced rudder', where some of the surface is before the hinge line, so you don't get all the effort at the wheel/tiller. Not totally balanced, or you'd get no feel at the wheel, but reduced effort is a good thing, especially with a lot of rudder.

I can't see it very well from here, but it's a matter of how much surface is in front of and how much is behind the hinge axis, though I suppose there's more to it (there's always more to it ), but a 'balanced' rudder has at least some blade area in front. How much I couldn't say, but the typical keel boat with cantilevered rudder has a fair bit of rudder before the hinge line.

My last boat:

Thanks for the responses and the conversation regarding the rudders. As my first sailboat, I wouldn't know right from wrong, twitchy from smooth. I'll leave them as is for awhile and use it and then maybe I'll swap them around down the road and see which feels better.

Bigger fish to fry now though and I'll get back to looking at it in a few weeks. I hope to get it on it's first sailing sea trial the weekend of the 16th.

If it were me, I'd take it out and play with it. It's a toy; you don't use it to commute, or to conduct business (like commercial fishing), or as your main domicile, so it's not critical that everything be everything. You got it to play with it. So go play with it. See what you do and don't like, and as you gain more experience, start making changes.

I would put a priority on restoring the mast, or shortening the main sail and raising the boom (possibly cheapest option right now), but I'd still go have some fun on it, while the summer is here. Heck, half the time I just motor out to a cove near my marina and drop the anchor and hang out and enjoy the view.

“Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.”
― Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

Tomfoolery wrote:If it were me, I'd take it out and play with it. It's a toy; you don't use it to commute, or to conduct business (like commercial fishing), or as your main domicile, so it's not critical that everything be everything. You got it to play with it. So go play with it. See what you do and don't like, and as you gain more experience, start making changes.

I would put a priority on restoring the mast, or shortening the main sail and raising the boom (possibly cheapest option right now), but I'd still go have some fun on it, while the summer is here. Heck, half the time I just motor out to a cove near my marina and drop the anchor and hang out and enjoy the view.

Yep! For sure I agree. I like the idea of shortening the sail and raising the boom so that I can use the bimini... it's just too blazing hot here not to have some respite from the sun. I'll have to cut a hole in the bimini as well for the backstay, but that's ok... this bimini's not brand new by any means

The gooseneck currently is riveted into the mast... is that ok or should I be looking at through bolts? I have rivets and a gun so it wouldn't be much trouble at all to raise it and I'm sure I could find someone reasonable to cut the sail down again. The jib looks fine (at least to my untrained eye) and even though it's a hanker onner, that's fine... when I get the new set up, I'll bite the bullet and buy the roller at the same time.

taylormade wrote:

Tomfoolery wrote:If it were me, I'd take it out and play with it. It's a toy; you don't use it to commute, or to conduct business (like commercial fishing), or as your main domicile, so it's not critical that everything be everything. You got it to play with it. So go play with it. See what you do and don't like, and as you gain more experience, start making changes.

I would put a priority on restoring the mast, or shortening the main sail and raising the boom (possibly cheapest option right now), but I'd still go have some fun on it, while the summer is here. Heck, half the time I just motor out to a cove near my marina and drop the anchor and hang out and enjoy the view.

Yep! For sure I agree. I like the idea of shortening the sail and raising the boom so that I can use the bimini... it's just too blazing hot here not to have some respite from the sun. I'll have to cut a hole in the bimini as well for the backstay, but that's ok... this bimini's not brand new by any means

The gooseneck currently is riveted into the mast... is that ok or should I be looking at through bolts? I have rivets and a gun so it wouldn't be much trouble at all to raise it and I'm sure I could find someone reasonable to cut the sail down again. The jib looks fine (at least to my untrained eye) and even though it's a hanker onner, that's fine... when I get the new set up, I'll bite the bullet and buy the roller at the same time.

For what it's worth, my 2001 X's gooseneck was riveted to the mast, and I've no reason to believe it was not so from the factory. A couple of those rivets were a bit wiggly, so I removed and replaced them. Shortening the sail and raising the boom to clear the bimini seems like a sensible provisional solution to me. As pointed out earlier by someone else (with certainly more experience than me), having a slightly reduced sail plan might not be an entirely bad thing for someone just learning to sail. So, patch it up, hike it up, rig some shade, and go have some fun. In the meantime, with folks routinely and literally giving away junky old sailboats, just keep your eye out for one with a mast you can use. Its rigging aside, unless it's bent, the actual mast itself is likely to be the very last thing in some junker to be beyond any further useful life. Get the boat just for the mast, then junk the boat. Then rig yours up all proper, with a new suit of sails, shrouds, etc., having by then earned a real appreciation for the vastly improved performance to come. With a bit of luck, it all shouldn't cost much more than you might already have spent over time for regular upkeep anyhow. (Nah...I'm kidding. We'll both be living in surplus FEMA trailers by the time we're through with this.)

Well I got the oil leak contained (not fixed, but slowed down for sure) and I got her out in the bay today! Raised the main sail and tooled around a little bit and got up to a whopping 2.4kph so I decided to hank on the jib and give it a whirl. What fun! I'm sure I did TONS wrong but I did a few things right as I was able to hit almost 6kph once and averaged around 3. I was able to use some of the bimini, and although it's not a very good solution and certainly not a permanent one, it sure was welcome relief from the Africa like temps here.

Against the sage advice of all who warned me, I took my wife out on our initial sail and she did great and loved the experience. We're excited for the times to come! I appreciate everyone's advice and assistance throughout this journey.

Sounds like a successful first time out. nothing broken, fun was had and the partner happy.

Well done Im sure many more fun times to come