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I am new to sailing, I started out at local lake that is very small and has been great learning how to sail. the other day we had some high winds that my wife and I were keen to try out. A couple of times we were leaning way over and it seems a little scary, what is to far? We were close to the "no sail zone" with the sail trimmed all the way and were going fast but a little scary. 25, 30 degrees? I keep telling my wife, "it is fine, we are not going to tip over" and I think to myself, "are we?" A little help please.

There is lots of info on this. And lots of opinions.

For me, 25 is the "sweet spot" and 35 is the "fun spot". Very hard for me to hold my boat on heading if the heel gets much over 35...just rounds up into the wind. After my sailing adventures over here with Bastonjock and RickJ I have lots of confidence in the boat and the rigging.

If your wife handled 25-30 degrees and is still willing to go for more then you are in good shape and a very luck man.

Jim

When a boat "leans" it is either listing or heeling. Listing is leaning due to weight distribution in the boat and that can be from taking on water which shifts to one side. Heeling is due to wind. The more a sailboat heels, the less sail it exposes to the wind, so heel is increasingly self-limiting. Not only does sail area decrease, but the hull becomes increasingly less efficient, and the centerboard/daggerboard becomes less effective, causing an increase in leeway (the boat moving sideways to the direction it's pointed).

If you are sailing over 15-20º heel, you have a problem. It could be:
The sails are pulled in too tight (with the "sheets") for the point of sail.
The sails aren't flat (halyards or clew outhaul too loose).
The sails aren't twisted off up top to spill air (vang too tight, traveler too leeward, foresail sheet cars too far forward).
But most likely, the sail area is excessive (not reefed/furled enough).

Learning to depower and reef are important skills new sailors need to develop.

Buy an inclinometer and mount it in the center of the sliding hatch's aft lip.
It shows "45-0-45" degrees of heel on each tack.
West marine is as good a source as any other.
Costs under $25, but it has pricless value.

You, and your crew, will gain confidence quickly as to what amount of heel feels bad versus what the heel really is.

You technically could approach and then pass the 45 degree mark, and still not be in any danger of going over.

From 0 to 25 degrees is found the sweet spot for performance. From 30 and up, little to no speed gain is seen for your efforts for reasons stated in earlier posts.

For new sailors, my vote will always go to an inclinometer as the first mod.

With my limited actual experience, but having read a lot as well on this subject I agree with MOE. Though I would allow you or me to bring it to 25 degrees before I might ask? What are yo hoping to accomplish? Maybe even 30+ if the winds had been variable that day / gusting.
But it is FUN to sail, heeling and it looks and feels SALTY even if in fact, it most often causes you to actually be going slower.
As per your question, YES.....we have gone to the 45 degree mark numerous times and came right back up. Was I concerned , sure I was , but the more we sail and the more often I or we do it with a really good sailor along the more confidence we garner.
Hans on this board was up at North Point Marina for 2 days and he really likes heeling and really convinced me these little boats do it quite well with no ill effects .

It always seems to me when I start heeling over 30 and I start letting out the main that the sail starts flogging/flapping and it ends up rubbing on the spreader if you let it out too much.

I guess pull down hard on the vang (when the boom is in close) to keep the top of the sail from twisting out when easing the main.

Never seen 40...boat will just round up before I get there. I only sail at 25+ when I expect to be there a short time. I just accept it. If I ease the main to reduce the heel I get the flapping/flogging main. If the winds are such that it seems as if I am frequently over 25 then I reef.



The clinometer and the hatch handle were my very first mod done on my first day in the boat based on previous recommendations from this website.

Jim

Another problem with heeling much over 25 degrees is that most of the upwind rudder lifts out of the water, further compounding problems of control and efficiency.

I seldom ease the mainsheet to reduce heeling due to a gust when sailing upwind (where it's more of a problem). Instead, "parry the puffs" by heading up and improve your velocity-made-good (VMG). Fall back off after the gust passes and the sails begin to luff. You can usually see gusts coming on the water surface.

Absolutely correct, Moe, that's what I do as well. Further, when the wind gusts or becomes stronger, you can actually run closer to the wind while maintaining power. Then when the wind gets lighter and the sails start to luff, fall off a bit and let the sails fill again. It's an old racing technique and works quite well.

As a side note, when I was first learning to sail (at the age of around 7), the venerable old sailor teaching me made me sit for what seemed like hours, just watching the water and feeling the wind, and learning to relate the two. He made me learn to 'see the wind', feel it coming, and - in hippie terms - 'become one with the water and the wind'... and it worked. To this day, my best sailing is when I let my mind go, putting aside all the things in the front of my mind - work, kids, life-in-general - and let my mind and body become one with the boat, the wind and the water... opening my senses, relaxing my self, and just feeling life in the moment... and so doing, my sailing vastly improves and my soul becomes at peace. I suppose you could say it is a form of Zen, and I imagine it probably is.

Interestingly, I also found this method useful when I was racing cars many years ago. After quite a while of struggling to push myself harder and go faster - and only ending up making more mistakes - I eventually began to see that it was more important to instead just 'let go' and get into the flow of the moment, letting myself 'feel' the rhythms of the car, the curves and the race... the race became almost like a kind of music, with a clearly discernible back-beat with a melody line made through a pattern of curves, track surfaces, banking and the other driver's cars ... in so doing, my mind began to be able to work both in the moment and also to be able to predict the next moment (by virtue of the rhythm), and be ready for whatever was coming... and this this made me a far better driver, and I began to enjoy my racing a whole lot more.

Feel the FORCE Luke...errrr...Kevin.

Well, as silly as it sounds, that's exactly it... grasshopper.

The question is "How far is too far". As I see it, it comes down to whether you are interested in the most efficient sail, being a clinical sailor, or are you interested in playing around, just having fun.

Moe, Kevin, DiveCoz are all correct if you wish to be the clinical sailor, but if the opportunity arises, and you just want to play with sailing on the edge (literally), then sheet in tight and go for it The Admiral and I get a kick out of watching the power boaters gawking. They must think we are about to go over

Our Lev-o-Gage only goes to 45 degrees. We have seen the little ball stop there, but Nice Aft didn't The picture below shows where we keep ours.


One warning If you have had functioning ports installed, make certain they are closed before attempting excessive heeling When those ports go below the water line, water will come in The technical term for that is SINKING


Ray

When I think of healing too far this u-tube comes to mind http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmDYpj_lo8 it shows a little on the advantages of reefing too.

Moe wrote:I seldom ease the main-sheet to reduce heeling due to a gust when sailing upwind (where it's more of a problem). Instead, "parry the puffs" by heading up and improve your velocity-made-good (VMG). Fall back off after the gust passes and the sails begin to luff. You can usually see gusts coming on the water surface.

My choice as well ( Moe and Kevin). I had my youngest daughter ( 37) out this summer for 2 days of sailing with the old guy. . .several times she experienced 30 + and I showed her how to just slightly ever so slightly change the angle of attack and .. . .all goes well with the world. Want it back ? Then just reverse what you did a moment ago.

The best sail control for maintaining a given heel is to play the traveller. If you have a have your crew ease the traveller to leeward during a puff. Only in an extreme puff when the boat heads up too much do you ease the main sheet as well. Most newbies can tolerate 20-25*. My wife refers to the traveller as "boat insurance" and she really does a great job of keeping the boat on her feet. Once the wind has filled in and we are at 30*, the main gets reefed.

I have a triangle traveller on my which has the original main sheet vang plus a second vang that has it's own boom bail 6" from the stock location and is snap shackled to the gunnel genny track. Prior to a new tack, I ease the gunnel vang so the boom can move to the new leeward position. Once I complete a tack I move the vang to the new leeward rail and harden up the vang. To play the main I ease the original main sheet to let the boom travel to leeward keeping the gunnel vang hard. The boom petty much maintaines the flat sail during the puff and the boat stays on speed/course.

This system works well on broad reaches and acts as a "preventer" as well.

The second best method is to play your dagger board or CB. When raising your DB you will induce side slip/leeway. You will loose some pointing but the boat will slide sideways rather than trying to stand up on a close reach.

You might want to give us your boat model and sailing port.

Bob