taking the MAC overseas

[dutchwinter]

Hi all. Well it looks like we will be headed to Stuttgart Germany, and I was hoping that someone on the forums had some experience PCSing to Europe with the MAC. I've been looking in the wrong places for info, or its incredibally hard to find. Any tips would be appreciated.

[PatrickS]

Hi all. Well it looks like we will be headed to Stuttgart Germany, and I was hoping that someone on the forums had some experience PCSing to Europe with the MAC. I've been looking in the wrong places for info, or its incredibally hard to find. Any tips would be appreciated.

I just took my 2001 26X from Texas to Finland last summer, so the (in some cases painful) details are still very fresh

Not sure what you mean by "PCSing".

I shipped mine on its original factory trailer via Roll-On-Roll-Off. The biggest hassle was the CE certification (Post Contruction Assessment). The economy has changed radically enough between last summer and now that it's probably not helpful to reference the costs I incurred, but I would budget for around 4500-5000 Euros to cover shipping, shipping insurance, and CE certification. As far as shipping goes, be sure to shop around, as there are likely some good deals to be had, given the huge hit the economy has had on shipping in general.

A few things to especially note:

1. The whole CE certification process is geared towards companies, and it can be *extremely* challenging to wade through as a private person. You can of course pay *lots* of money to have an agency do it for you, but I presume you want to keep the costs to a minimum, as I did, so be prepared for some insanity. Hopefully I can guide you past some of the worst of it.

2. The trailer should be considered "disposable". You'll need to change out the axel, brakes, lights, hitch/brake actuator, etc. (i.e. everything but the frame) to meet EU regulations so there's really no point trying to bring it. If you have a nice trailer, sell it there and get a nasty rusted out trailer to use just for transport, and plan to buy a new trailer in Germany. If you opt to ship the boat in a container (though I found that to be alot more expensive than Roll-On-Roll-Off) then you can of course just leave the trailer behind. If you ship Roll-On-Roll-Off, pay to have the boat shrink wrapped. It will both deter thieves, but most importantly, will keep the boat clean (it was amazing how dirty my boat was when it finally got to Finland). Also, secure the mast with padding directly to the deck to minimize total height, not on the cradle, which anyway isn't secure enough IMO for shipping.

3. If your outboard doesn't already have valid CE certification, sell the outboard and plan to buy a new CE certified outboard in Germany. There's no affordable equivalent to the Post Construction Assessment for outboard engines, so the most cost effective option is to repower in Germany. One other option, if any are still available, is to find a 2007-2008 (not older) Mercury 50ELPTO which has the CE certification. Mercury had several "global" models up to 2008 which they shipped around the globe, including Europe, and included CE certification on those models. That's what I did. I found a new 2007 and had that installed on the boat before shipping it from Texas. That would probably be cheaper than the equivalent engine in Germany, but it was tough finding the one I did a year ago. By now, they may no longer be any (new at least, perhaps you might find a used one).

If you decide to proceed with shipping your Mac to Germany, PM me and I'll put you in touch with the company I worked with for the CE certification, who are located in northern Germany.

Cheers,

Patrick

[dutchwinter]

yeah, thats where it starts to get sticky, the whole CE certification I mean. Im assuming that I'll be keeping the US registration, and hoping that the SOFA will protect me from incuring any kind of non conformity fines. PCSing is a permanent change of duty station. although its just for 3 years. I wasnt clear I suppose, sorry for that. We are moving under miltary orders. One of the main reasons we got the mac, is that its supposed to be so easy to transport, and thats what we are looking to do now. Id hate to have a new boat in the states wrapped up, and not be able to use it, while being stationed in Germany.
I know alot of militay personel choose the mac for its ease of tranport, but so far havent found a post of anyone who has taken it overseas under orders. as far as my research has gone so far Ive found out that the military will cover the costs of moving it, as long as it can fit in a container, and my carrier will accept it. alternatively, i can ship it myself and the army will give me 80% of what it would cost them. this is the route that Ill most likely want to use, becasue the military typically wont be able to get a better bargin than me, and doesnt try to.
I called the jppso office in ft lewis, and, well, needless to say Im on my own. Ive got a few months before We need to be ready, so theres some time. The thought of Venice, Monaco, Paris and Amsterdam all being about 5 hours away from Stuttgart by driving, make me very motivated to not have the boat cocooned here in the states.
I realise I have alot more reseach to do, both with sailing an american flagged vessel in Europe, and the move in general. Like i said, my lack of knowlege isnt from a lack of looking, its just that I must be looking in the wrong spots.

[bastonjock]

I thnik that you would be better to leave your mac at home and buy one over here and sell it later.I have spoken to a few US forces personnell who have brought cars over,most of them try to unload the cars before going back to the USA.There are fewer and fewer military guys doing it with their cars and cars dont need the C.E ticket,also if you are going to have your boat in Europe longer than 18 months you will then be liable for import tax and vat tax,that can hurt,i just imported some of Arts finest sails and it all came to about 900 GB pounds the total tax was 185 GB pounds,VAT is rated at 15% in the Uk (17.5% rest of europe) and i think that the import duty is around 10%.

So on a mac thats worth 20k you could count on another $15k to ship it to Europe unless there is a special agreement with the US military.

C130 King was posted over here a while ago,i know that the guy pines for his boat,perhaps he may be able to advise you from a US military prospective.

If you were being sent to the UK,i could offer you the odd sail on the East Coast along with C130 and myself,jim and i have only been out a couple of times and we will go out again as soon as my parts for my new mast arrive from the states(unfortunately thay are being shipped by boat)

best of luck,if they ever post you to Lakenheath im just an hour away.

matt

[AxelH]

I will check out the german customs office. If I find out something I'll let you know
Axel

[dutchwinter]

I was worried about getting my plates but according to the reg http://rmv.hqusareur.army.mil/190-1/ss190-1.htm it looks like Im all good. just need lights, brakes and safety chains, and I think Im good to go. well for the trailer anyhow.
we are tax exempt, so Im not concerned with that, no import or vat taxes to worry about. shouldnt have to get european registration either. Im fairly certain the biggest concern is simply going to be getting the boat there, and maybe getting it registered nationally, like with the coast guard, or something. Im on a roll, and I'll keep on searching till I hit a wall. and if i find anything more useful, Ill post it here. if anyone has a tidbit or info about sailing internationally, or miltiary restrictions, or anything they think is pertinent, let me know please.

[dutchwinter]

this is the info that i keep finding over and again, and this posting is the most complete one that I could find. so for future service members, in case you have a hard time finding it.

Boat movements at government expense almost always result in excess cost. Our records show excess cost for boat shipments in fiscal year 1996 ranged from $65 to over $4,100 with most cases in excess of $1,100. Through careful planning, excess cost may be reduced in some cases and eliminated in others.
Most members are not well informed on the movement of boats in government shipments. The belief that all related costs were authorized when the shipping entitlement was added to the Joint Federal Travel Regulation (JFTR) IS NOT CORRECT. The JFTR authorizes movement of a boat, up to a cost not to exceed the amount to move the same weight of household goods. This sounds quite simple enough; however, most boats move under a one-time-only (OTO) rate at commercial rates. These rates usually exceed the rates to move a like weight of household goods. When this happens, excess cost is incurred. Please review the following information before you arrange for shipment of your boat at government expense.

CONSIDER A DITY MOVE: If you are moving your boat within the continental United States (CONUS) or between the CONUS and Alaska, consider making a Do-It-Yourself (DITY) move (at least for the boat). Your branch of service will pay you an incentive of 80% of what it would have cost the government to move the same property (up to the amount of weight remaining on your entitlement), less actual expenses and applicable taxes. The incentive is based on actual weight moved, not to exceed your maximum weight allowance. This program allows you to move the boat at government expense and possibly make money for doing it.

MAKE YOUR OWN ARRANGEMENTS: If you are moving to or from an area where DITY moves are not allowed or choose not to make one, consider making your own arrangements with a commercial boat hauler. You are authorized reimbursement, not to exceed what the government would have paid to move the same weight of household goods. CONTACT THE TRANSPORTATION OFFICE FOR GUIDANCE BEFORE MAKING YOUR OWN ARRANGEMENTS. In all cases reviewed so far, members have avoided excess cost by making their own arrangements. A member who paid $9,000 for including his boat in a government shipment could have avoided the bill completely by selecting this option. He could have arranged movement for only $3,500 and received reimbursement from your branch of service. NOTE: As with DITY moves, you must have weight remaining on your entitlement to receive reimbursement.

BECOME FAMILIAR WITH PROCEDURES AND COST: If you decide to move your boat in a government shipment, you should know how it moves and at what cost. Moves within the CONUS or between CONUS and Alaska are considered domestic, all other destinations are international. Boats, moving domestically, are divided into two categories:
Boats, canoes, skiffs, and kayaks less than 14 feet long and dinghies or sculls of any size without trailers may be shipped as household goods at the regular rate. You are responsible for any special crating or materials needed to move the boat.
Boats 14 feet and longer and boats under 14 feet with a trailer may move under a domestic OTO rate negotiated by the Military Traffic Management Command (MTMC) with either a tow away service or a commercial boat hauler. These shipments ALWAYS result in excess cost. Shipment under the DITY program is highly recommended for boats and/or trailers in this category.

!!!CAUTION!!! - Boats over 14 feet shipped along with your property by a household goods carrier cause the entire shipment to move at substantially higher rates, resulting in extremely high excess cost to you. There are two categories for boats moving internationally:
If the boat and/or trailer will fit in a standard overseas container and is accepted by the carrier, it may move at the normal single factor household goods rate. (Only smaller boats meet this requirement.)
All other boats are moved under an international OTO boat rate negotiated by MTMC. It is important to note that if household goods are shipped at the same time, they will also move at the OTO rate. International OTO boat shipments ALWAYS result in excess cost. If you are shipping a boat internationally, we STRONGLY recommend making your own arrangements (see item b).

BEWARE OF FACTORS WHICH INCREASE EXCESS COST: You, the member, are responsible for all additional accessorial costs related to the movement of a boat and/or trailer. Additional accessorial costs include, but are not limited to: tire replacement, tire repair, packing wheel bearings, structural repairs to the trailer, lift on or lift off services of a commercial boat hauler, and all special packing, crating, and handling. Also remember, if the household goods and boat move together at a rate higher than the normal household goods rate (as in the case of shipments moving under international OTO boat rates), the increased cost of moving the household goods is borne by the member.

STORAGE OF YOUR BOAT: Generally, the weight of the boat and cost increases discussed for transportation also apply to storage of boats. Most nontemporary storage contractors will not accept boats for storage. When accepted, the weight of the boat is considered part of the net weight of your shipment and counts against your allowance. We highly recommend that you make your own arrangements for storage of boats with a commercial company and file for reimbursement after withdrawal. Reimbursement is limited to actual expenses, not to exceed what the government would have paid to store a like weight of household goods. You must also have weight remaining on your entitlement. Water storage of boats at government expense is not authorized.

PLAN AHEAD: Ask the TRANSPORTATION OFFICE to compute your excess cost prior to the pickup date. Upon receipt of the one time only rate, the TRANSPORTATION OFFICE can do a cost comparison and tell you the approximate excess cost. Use this figure for planning purposes only. You are liable for the actual excess cost (which may be higher), regardless of an estimate received from Transportation office or the movers.

LISTEN CAREFULLY AND ASK QUESTIONS: Listen carefully to your Transportation office counselor. One of the most common statements in rebuttal letters is "I was never told," yet signed documentation reflects differently. Entitlements are constantly changing, so please do not rely on previous counseling sessions or personal experiences. Ask questions, no matter how insignificant they may seem. Correcting deficiencies or problems after the fact is extremely difficult and, in many cases, not possible.

HOW CAN I APPEAL AN EXCESS COST BILL? If you receive a DD Form 139 (Pay Adjustment Authorization), contact the Transportation office BEFORE you agree to pay the debt. You have four (4) avenues of appeal:
REBUTTAL: Your first avenue in submitting a rebuttal to the applicable adjudication function through your local Transportation office. You must state the reasons why you wish to dispute the debt.
REMISSION: Active duty enlisted members may file for remission of indebtedness through Accounting and Finance. Only the uncollected portion of a debt can be considered for remission.

BOARD FOR CORRECTION OF MILITARY RECORDS: If you feel an injustice exists, your next step is a review by the Board for Correction of Military Records. Process a DD Form 149 (Application for Correction of Military Records) through the Military Personnel Center. Responses to your rebuttal and remission must accompany this application.

GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE: Your final avenue is to the General Accounting Office. This request is processed through the Accounting and Finance Office.
It may take anywhere from 6 months to 2 years before you receive notification of indebtedness for exceeding your entitlements. This delay is due to carrier billing procedures and the gathering of information worldwide by finance. Do not hesitate to use the above appeal process, and remember, you may use an avenue more than once if all of your information was not considered. Hold on to your shipping documents!

[AxelH]

If you are stationed in Stuttgart - the closes piece of water is lake Constance (Bodensee) It's a pretty big lake between Germany/Austria and Switzerland. Just fly the US flag and the police will probably not mess with you. Germans need to have a special license for that lake. Hope that info helps a bit

[Stefan]

Well, the MAC is designed the way so it can easily be shipped inside a container, which is the cheapest way.
I am expecting my new boat here in Russia, on the Black Sea coast, it is shipped by the factory for $4500, but it's a rip off anyway, because I got a quote from the company I know and used it for shipping cars to Europe. They would do it for around $3000, in a 40' high cube container.
But I was stuck with the factory provided shipping company, they just made it impossible to do it on my own, which really pi$$ me of
But since you are shipping the used boat, there are some good deals out there.
I suggest the company I was going to use, it's called "American Export Lines", www.shipit.com, I worked with a guy named Zak, their office is in Los Angeles
310 523-2300
I don't know the port you are planning to ship it from, but I think they might be able to suggest you he best option for you, may be even delivering it to LA first, it might still be reasonable.

[tangentair]

One thing to consider - after reading through the above - when they are referring to 14 FTers fitting into a container, they probably are under the belief that a larger boat will not make the inside diminsions with the necessary bracing needed. A Mac will fit into a 40ft container, I do not know how much household goods could be put inside it and around it but a professional packing company could tell you. Not one of the home moving kind but one that crates and ships goods for businesses. I shipped lots of medical equipment to China and Russia in the 90s and an occassional boat or motorcycle or other perk got stuck in without any problems. But having said that, I think your best advice was to buy a scrap trailer and get a European one over there. My experience with customs people at various borders has been, because the law is in my favor, it just means I have to wait until someone high enough up knows that also - before I can move the goods through. You don't want to be sitting at some roadside with your trailer impounded because some official thinks it needs to be EU certified. That or get some paper with lots of stamps on it from lots of countries saying it is exempt. (and in the end the insurance companies may determine you need EU products or you will not fit their actuary tables)

[2BonC]

not to forget, You have a trailer too. I suppose You will not be allowed to use an original MG-trailer on German roads.

Rainer

[AxelH]

@ 2BonC
Does that also apply for trailers with US license plate?? I drove my Jeep (as a German with a German address) over there for almost a year with CA plate without any modifications on the car? I also saw a few 5th wheelers (Aufliegerwohnwagen) with US plates and US plates on the tow truck. Have not been there for a while. Probably get a culture shock when I get there end of the month

[2BonC]

@ 2BonC
Does that also apply for trailers with US license plate?? I drove my Jeep (as a German with a German address) over there for almost a year with CA plate without any modifications on the car? I also saw a few 5th wheelers (Aufliegerwohnwagen) with US plates and US plates on the tow truck. Have not been there for a while. Probably get a culture shock when I get there end of the month

..I´m not sure about that, but as long nobody asks it might work .
I could geather the info from our trafic department however dutchwinter must ask for it and than I would need the details of him...

Rainer

[dutchwinter]

this is the reg from the previous link. See the link for more info. as far as driving with us plates, i wouldnt know. they make miltary get nato plates as soon as you get there. every base has a vehicle registration office. i do believe that you need to have at least a class B or some other kind of endorsement to drive a POV with a trailer. maybe youd have to go get a german licence, which aint a bad idea since they never expire.
if you, or anyone has any info that contradicts mine, I would love to have it now other than later. i have the 09 M and the aluminum trailer with surge brakes.



C-20. TRAILER-TOWING VEHICLES

a. Trailer-towing vehicles must be equipped with—


(1) Electrical receptacles for connecting trailer lights (taillights, directional lights, and stoplights). This does not apply to class A, A1, and M vehicles when the taillights, directional lights, and stoplights of the towing vehicle can be clearly seen over the towed trailer.

(2) Two outside rearview mirrors that enable the driver to see beyond the towed trailer or camper.

b. Commercially designed trailer hitches must be attached to the vehicle framework for vehicles towing trailers with a gross weight (trailer weight including load) of more than 2,000 pounds (900 kilograms). The hitches must be attached to the vehicle according to the manufacturer’s specifications.



C-21. TRAILERS

a. Commercially manufactured and homemade trailers must be registered. For homemade trailer frames, the shape of the metal frame structural parts must be U, I, L, or box. The frame must support the intended load without bending or swaying. Commercial axles and suspension-system components capable of supporting loaded trailers must be used. The suspension system must support the intended load without swaying or dipping.

b. Trailer wheels must be covered or equipped with fenders that prevent trailer tires from throwing objects into the path of following vehicles.

c. Trailer taillights, directional lights, stoplights, and reflectors must meet the same requirements as those for the towing vehicle. This does not apply to trailers towed by class A, A1, and M vehicles when the taillights, directional lights, and stoplights of the towing vehicle can be clearly seen over the towed trailer. The trailer-light system must match the towing vehicle electrical system (1-circuit or 2-circuit system) and have reflective triangles (6 inches (15 centimeters) on each side) mounted as close to the outer edges as possible.

d. The owner is responsible for the strength of all welds and bolts used for attachments on homemade trailers. All nuts must be secured with lock washers or cotter pins.

e. The trailer hitch or coupling must be of commercial make.

f. Trailers with commercial tandem axles are acceptable.

g. A safety chain or cable is required to restrain the trailer in the event it detaches from the towing vehicle.

h. Brakes are required on trailers when the gross weight exceeds 1,650 pounds (750 kilograms) or one-half of the weight of the towing vehicle. The owner must provide verified written proof of gross weight and have a date plate attached to the frame that displays the serial number, verified gross weight, and maximum payload weight. Trailers that exceed 1,650 pounds (750 kilograms) gross weight must be equipped with brakes and a safety chain or cable that would (if the trailer became detached)—


(1) Restrain the trailer.

(2) Function to engage the brakes.

i. A trailer brought in for inspection must be accompanied by the vehicle that will tow it. This will allow the inspector to check for proper connections, mountings, and compatibility.

[bastonjock]

Dutch,the mac trailer is totally unsuitable for european roads,all the the trailers in the EU have to have brakes,its a cheaper option for Macgreggor UK to purchase locally manufactured traillers than to convert the ones built in the States.One other thing to bear in mind is that if you ever decide to sell your boat in europe you will have to pay Vat and import duty.

My trailer differs from the mac trailer ,it is hot dipped (galvanised) and the axle has independant suspension ,sealed bearings.I dont know if the coupling on the US trailers are the same either,ours move to trigger the brakes and they disengage the breaks whilst reversing.the tyres(tires) on mine are pressurised up to 90 PSI,they are commercially rated tyres

good luck with it all