MacGregorSailors.com

A few weeks ago I wrote briefly about our maiden voyage on the St. Johns River (the wife and I) and I mentioned submerged docks wrapping around props, no wake zones, storms and fog on Lake George. I did not mention the additional bad news regarding leaks because I wanted to get a handle on the sources and causes first. Suffice it to say, the trip was a nightmare and persuading the wife to embark on future voyages won't be easy. We are thinking of naming the boat The Clark W. Griswald.

To figure out why water was flooding the storage areas and battery compartment of the cabin of our 2005 26M, I ran water through a garden hose and into the forward vent. The ballast valve at the stern was closed. Through this method, I filled the rear part of the ballast tank where the water had flowed in during our little expedition on the St. Johns. To my dismay, I found no fewer than five sources of entry for the water from the ballast tank. Four were from what appear to be voids in the tank. Shining a flashlight in the dark, and thereby focusing the light and my vision on a single point (the point of water intrusion), I was able to detect what, for lack of a better word, are voids in the fiberglass. Resin is present and covering the tops of the voids but, otherwise, there is a direct link between tank and cabin. My dealer in Fla., Gateway Sailing, has been very responsive and will be helping to resolve this serious warranty issue. I can only hope that there are not other voids elsewhere that I didn't find upon initial inspection, especially since I have already installed my engine and an expensive customized sound system (no drilling holes from either of these installations are present). (In fact, the sound system was installed with custom made boxes and the components were placed on shelves bracketed to the ladder, to minimize drilling and minimize consumption of cabin space - I'll upload pictures some time.)

The fifth leak is from a plastic disc which is affixed to the top of the ballast tank in the port side, aft berth storage compartment located immediately behind the battery compartment. The disc has sealant around it but leaks nonetheless.

My questions are these: has anyone experienced similar problems with voids? what's the purpose of the disc and did the factory put it there? What would cause the voids to form or were they likely formed at the time of production/manufacture and, if the latter, how did that likely happen?

I am really worried about other possible voids and the possibility of voids forming down the road, when I'm in open water and/or out of the warranty period. Hopefully, my ballast tank is not entirely defective and is capable of being salvaged. Thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions.

Chip Stanton

Chip wrote:To my dismay, I found no fewer than five sources of entry for the water from the ballast tank. Four were from what appear to be voids in the tank. Shining a flashlight in the dark, and thereby focusing the light and my vision on a single point (the point of water intrusion), I was able to detect what, for lack of a better word, are voids in the fiberglass. Resin is present and covering the tops of the voids but, otherwise, there is a direct link between tank and cabin. )

The fifth leak is from a plastic disc which is affixed to the top of the ballast tank in the port side, aft berth storage compartment located immediately behind the battery compartment. The disc has sealant around it but leaks nonetheless.

I am really worried about other possible voids and the possibility of voids forming down the road, when I'm in open water and/or out of the warranty period. Hopefully, my ballast tank is not entirely defective and is capable of being salvaged. Thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions.

Chip Stanton

This is a very serious quality contol situation that the factory needs to be aware of immediately. Leaking ballast tanks could be the cause of a serious lawsuit. Word of it could hurt sales. I'm stunned to learn this has happened. IMHO, you need to cash in on your warranty asap! Could there be a recall!

Chip Sorry to hear of your bad delivery. I would not want to trust that boat any further. There is a fellow on this list that had a bad delivery and he recieved a different boat. I know it would be a real PITA to have to swap your motor and stereo but maybe you could get Macgregor to compensate the costs. I would think they would want the boat back at their factory to tear apart to see what happened.
Best of luck getting this resolved and after it is be sure to tell the wife that the boat is unsinkable. (sorry I couldn't resist)

i never heard of a leaky ballast tank before. it seems to be a serious structural defect that cannot be repaired by the dealer. return the boat to the factory and ask for a new one!

Voids are nearly always a direct result of faulty glassfibre layup. They do not occur after production unless there is a significant impact to the product, and in which case there would be sufficient evidence of cause. In your case, there is no such evidence, so these are clearly factory-induced voids.

Production voids are almost always caused by one of five reasons:

- Improper rolling-out of the materials. Proper method is to use a clean finned-roller which is designed to compress the materials, remove bubbles and promote resin permiation into the mat or rovings.

- Using too 'hot' a mix (too much hardner) resulting in a rapid cure rate and too high of a cure temperature, causing bubbles to appear in the product

- Curing at the wrong ambient temperature (which will also create bubbles in the product)

- Using an inadequate amount of resin which does not fully saturate the substrate (mat/rovings/etc.)

- Significant distortion of the product before fully cured. If, for example, the product was removed from the mould early, and then substantially twisted or bent, this could produce a void.

----------------------------------------------------
Voids cause not only leaks, as you've experienced, but they also greatly reduce the strength and rigidity of the material. In the case of the ballast tank, it is not only used to contain the ballast water, but it is also designed as a critical structural member which reinforces the hull.

In terms of repair, the only way to repair a void is completely remove the bad section and some of the surrounding material, feather the edges to create a broad bonding surface, and then replace the void with a properly bonded and void-free new section. You can't simply patch up the void or (worse yet) fill it with resin... it will fail, and the failure may be catastrophic.

If you have voids of the nature you've stated, then my advice is to get MacGregor to give you a new boat under warranty. You've probably only discovered a few of the voids... my guess is that there are a lot more that you have *not* discovered, and some of those may also be in critical areas. I would no longer trust the structural integrity of this boat. If MacGregor balks, get a certified boat surveyor to examine the vessel and have him draft a report to document the craft's seaworthyness (or, in this case, lack thereof). Most good surveyors are well aquainted with poor glassfibre layup.

Thanks very much for the responses. The last response was most helpful and I appreciate it very much.

Chip Stanton

PLease give us your hulll number. I am looking to buy (WAS) and am concerned about buying a MacGregor now in the same series. I for one will wait to read just how MacGregor handles this problem.
YT Richard
in waiting

Just a guess from six years as a Mac owner, and observer of the Macgregor company . . . I expect you to find the factory replaces your boat and completely compensates you. This company may cut corners to meet their market niche, but I've seen them stand firmly behind their product, and I think that's what you'll find here. However, I'd be firm, resolute and speedy about stating my concerns and desires.

Best wishes!

I too wouldn't feel comfortable with anything short of a new boat. Besides, even if a repair was to be done, isn't much of the ballast tank hidden and inaccessible beneath the liner?

--Mike

hmmm,

If that boat has Leaks (plural), thats gotta go back to Roger and be taken apart.....If there is anyone that does not want a bad boat out there....

It would be our scottish business man........ Leaky boats are VERY bad for Business.......

Good luck.

A complete hull separation/inspection with a hydro on the ballast tank is in order


|>

Condolences to your boat, sounds like you will have a new one soon...and that there may be some staffing changes at the MacGregor factory soon too. You would think that they would have a QC process to catch these things even if they make it through production.

Definitely demand a new boat!

I'm waiting for the next boat delivery at Gateway Sailing for my new "M" mast. So you will be doing me a favor by speeding up their delivery schedule - LOL. In all seriousness your boat should be replaced. Good luck.

Actually, I have water sneaking into my boat from I don't know where. Maybe from rain.... but now that you have acertained that your boat is leaking inherently I'm going to have to make a concerted effort to track down just where the water is coming from before my warrenty expires.

Before we all panic and tell Roger how to run his business, lets realise we have 500 people on this list and this is a first occurence of a structural problem that I recall being posted.

Chip - I hope the factory gives you a new boat if your circumstances are as you describe. I wouldnt feel too comfortable knowing by ballast tank might be ready to let go at any time..

*****************************************
Chip - Please don't take offense at the next line...Im sure you are an up-and-up guy but there is a little history here that might precede your joining the list.

In the interests of being good consumers of web information....

If I were one of the angry people on the Sailing Anarchy Group with an agenda I would start a thread like this to trash the Mac.

If you havent browsed that group....DONT....its full of negativism, deci-truths, and bad karma.

Say TampaMac maybe you and Chip could get together there. He has a mast with no boat and you have a boat with no mast. It sounds like a match to me. If you are both working with the same dealer he might be able to simplify things. But then again this is the Macgregor factory we are talking about. Simplify things and you will probably end up with two hulls and Chip with two Masts.

One way that we on this board could help Chip out would be to offer to sign a letter of concern. I would have no problem in listing my Mac hull number and affixing my signature to a letter to Roger. Say if 50-100 current Mac owners signed the letter of concern, that would cirtainly help put pressure to make sure things get taken care of.

Regards

Rich